83 – Building a Multi-passionate Creative Career with Peggy Dean of The Pigeon Letters

Laura

00:06
Hi, this is Laura Lee Griffin.

Nikki

00:08
And this is Nikki May with the Startist Society, inspiring you to stop getting in your own way and start building an art biz and life that you love.

Laura

00:17
We are artists who believe strongly in the power of community, accountability, following your intuition, taking small actionable steps and breaking down the barriers of fear and procrastination that keep you stuck.

Nikki

00:30
Follow along with us on our creative business journey as we encourage you on yours. Many of you may know today’s guest, the incredible Peggy Dean of The Pigeon Letters. Peggy is a multi-passionate entrepreneur, an artist, author and educator. And she is a great example of a Startist.

Laura

00:53
Peggy is the author of eight books, a top teacher on Skillshare with over 50 classes on drawing, painting, lettering, digital art and more. She has her own creative membership called The Flock Cooperative. She created her own line of synthetic cruelty-free watercolor brushes and monoline pens, and has created Lightroom presets and Procreate brushes.

Nikki

01:16
Geez, is that all? When is she gonna actually accomplish something?

Laura

01:20
Right. As a self-taught artist born into creativity through a struggle with mental health, Peggy promotes embracing imperfections and living out loud. She has a soft spot for ensuring that anyone with a passion feels empowered to be able to create.

Nikki

01:36

Peggy

, welcome to the Startist Society. We’re so glad to have you here.

Peggy

01:40
Thank you so much, I’m so happy to be here. So happy to be here. This is my favorite, favorite time to be able to chat with people.

Laura

01:48
We are so excited that you’re here!

Nikki

01:50
All right. So we love to start all of our interviews with hearing your Startist story, how you began with art and creativity and grew it into the amazing business that you have now.

Peggy

02:03
Yes, yes, I love to share this because it is so special in the way that I started my journey. And I think that it can resonate with a lot of people as well. So I’m going to start off with TMI, because that’s what I love to do. I love it, because I think it’s more relatable that way. So…

Nikki

02:26
We love TMI, it’s my middle name.

Peggy

02:28
I love it. All right, so I’m going to try to summarize this without going off on a tangent. So nutshell time, but I think it’s very relatable for people when it comes to mental health. And, you know, I think that first of all artwork and channeling mindfulness that way is super special. And if I can give the gift of what I went through for somebody else, I think that that is the biggest reward. So in my late 20s, I had some coping mechanisms that may have served me in my teens, but carried over because I, you know, didn’t address what was going on in my life through better measures and got married and realized that those coping mechanisms no longer worked in my adult life. And luckily, I have a partner who’s very patient, but also who holds me accountable. And I was able to address the things that I hadn’t before. And so, through that process, I found out that I have you know, I went to therapy and saw basically, there was a compound situation. I have ADHD, I’m very impulsive, I had some borderline tendencies, so that knowledge around that, you know, mixed with a program called DBT, Dialectical Behavioral Therapy similar to CVD CBD, well, CBT. But that combo was really helpful in my growth and being able to really identify and reroute the way that I met anything in my life that I felt discomfort about. So one night I was you know, a lot of times we don’t really recognize our emotions until it’s a little bit later. So we might be in fix-it mode or just in like having our mask-mode, something happens to us we have that resilience, it just is built into us. But I, I was trying to be, during this space, you know, mindful space, more recognizing, basically of my of my own reactions and being able to respond to my emotions instead of react to them. So I chose a soothing route instead of a destructive route and sat down and aimlessly started painting, because I had these old paints I found. They were not good quality at all. But it didn’t matter. It was more of just like the act of swatching them and then letting them dry and drawing little doodles on top of them. And I did that for about a month. And I started like, creating things that I didn’t know that I could, just out of curiosity. I wasn’t, I didn’t, I wasn’t trying to show up online, I wasn’t trying to… I didn’t even look at resources online at that point. And it just opened a door for me and then I really wanted to learn modern calligraphy. So I did start looking at resources, but I did not find any. And that was like opportunity time for me because I love oversharing. So I took what I knew, I took what I knew about traditional calligraphy that I took in ninth grade, I kind of like started breaking the rules very poorly, because I didn’t have necessarily like rules to apply. So it looked real bad before it started looking good. But in that process, I started connecting more. I started finding little challenges on Instagram. And that’s kind of how that part of me took off, was connecting. When I got on Instagram, it wasn’t about growing followers. And it wasn’t about trying to be anything other than to connect with like-minded passionate people who were interested in the same stuff is that I was but along this process of finding different interests in the creative world, I had joined Skillshare. I found a couple of classes that were just interesting, very random, off-topic project classes that just kind of fed that part of myself that would let me be you know, mindful, but also kind of mindless at the same time, where it dismissed a lot of the noise from my life in the regular and then allowing myself to be channeled in a way too. So they sent out an email for a teach challenge to everybody. And I was thinking at that point, gosh, I can’t stop forcing this on other people because I’m so excited about it and people mention, oh, this is beautiful, like, I don’t know how you do this. And like, that doesn’t mean they want to learn but something in my head is like, let me show you.

Nikki

07:30
Just to get an idea. Peggy, about how long ago was this?

Peggy

07:33
This was six years ago? So I had just quit my which is funny because I actually went back to it before I quit, quit and went and did this full time. But I had quit hair and makeup. I did it for about 10 years. And I got an office job, it had great work culture, I found out about it through another person who had done the same thing, because it’s like, it’s just trying on your body after a while. So props to people who are in that industry for over 10 years. Yeah, so I would sit at my desk and I would just create while taking calls, and I would just it was so fun. And I mean doodlers, who are on the phone know what I’m talking about.

Nikki

08:15
Oh, yeah.

Peggy

08:16
So learning, yeah, learning something, and then being able to practice basically on getting paid to practice, that’s cool. Yeah, and I wouldn’t stop sharing it, because everybody would see. And then I just was like, oh, you know, oh, you’re interested, let me show you some tips I learned and one of them actually got into it, and started doing it as a wedding stationer, which is really cool. But when they sent out that teach challenge at Skillshare, I was thinking, gosh, you know, at this point, there are not resources out here for this. And while I am not seasoned, I do know the fundamentals enough to where I can kickstart this for somebody else. And so I think for me, it was more about excitement, and less about Oh, am I qualified for this and that class, I think, for that reason, because I showed up as me, I didn’t try to sugarcoat anything as far as my experience, it landed me on the Today show. Yeah, my first like payment, I thought was an error. I thought there was an extra zero that shouldn’t have been there, and I was just like, wow. Yeah. And I won the teach challenge too, with that class. So there was just like so much in that and I will not rewatch it. It’s terrible. Like, you’re like my video quality, my audio quality, everything’s so bad. But at the time, it’s like, that’s what I tell people, too, who are interested in in doing content, like a lot of times, you’re gonna learn as you go, and people aren’t focused so much on that in your initial stages so much as they are the content that you’re actually putting out there.

Nikki

08:16
Right. And it’s, it’s a great example of getting started before you’re ready, and not letting everything not being perfectly aligned stop you from just getting started, which is our whole message.

Peggy

10:10
And I think that it’s a lot easier said than done, for sure. Because when we get in our heads, it’s like, that’s the end of it. And I’ve kind of reframed this with my coaching clients. This is ridiculous to say, but it’s also 100% true in my mind, I know statistically that doesn’t exist. But I think it’s 90% mindset and 10% skill, I truly believe it wholeheartedly. It’s like we’re the only thing standing in our way, because we’re all absolutely figuring it out. Like we’re all in the same boat. And it’s so great to connect with people who we think have it all together. Because at the end of the day, we’re literally all struggling with the exact same thing. It doesn’t matter where you’re at, in your process of anything. We’re really always just trying to figure it out. And

Nikki

11:00
Yeah, human feelings are really universal and we forget that all the time.

Peggy

11:05
All the time. Yeah. So I mean, that was my open door. And it was just a matter of like, what’s the worst thing that’s gonna happen, I have a class that doesn’t even do anything. Or maybe I make another 20 bucks a month, whatever it’s going to be. I love doing this. And I love oversharing. And there’s a gap here. And I just want to make mention that, even if there’s not a gap, there’s more than enough room for all of us. There really is. And I learned this when I did hair actually. And it’s hard because you know, you work in, it can be very competitive. But I just look at it as hey, if a stylist isn’t available one day, and their client really needs to get their hair on, why not have somebody that you trust, and they trust, that could be a backup for them. Because eventually there’s going to be overlap, and you’re, at the end of the day taking care of your client, which helps them build trust in you. And then it’s solid, you know, and when I was a manager of a salon, when we started implementing that more as a mindset, our sales, everything about us, we were… okay, I’m excited to share this stuff, even though it’s super old. But…

Nikki

11:08
That’s okay, go for it.

Peggy

11:10
It’s a chain and nationally… So we have regions and it was like basically Pacific Northwest plus a little bit east. And we were second to last in the district. And I became a manager and I changed mindset only and tooting my own horn here, in the quarter, we moved in three months from the very last which was like, I think 30 something to the top in a hard to reach area. And it was literally all mindset and being able to collaborate and be open and learn and know that like, you know, we don’t have all the answers, there’s always some way to learn and grow. And when it comes to improvement, rather than saying, hey, you know, let’s correct this, it’s, Hey, here’s an opportunity for this. So rather than like working at a company, if we do that for ourselves, and we kind of turn it and like, I didn’t fail, this is an opportunity to where I can grow from this. If I felt, oh my gosh, if I revisited everything that I’ve done, I would pull all of my content, I’m not kidding you, I would pull all of it even. Even just from last year, I would look at that and be like, oh boy, I can’t believe that I said that.

Nikki

13:33
Well, that’s a great example of, you know, that’s proof that you’re still growing, which is great, because if you were super proud of everything you’d ever done, that would kind of show that you hadn’t grown.

Peggy

13:46
Right. And I think that that has is what has kept me in the industry I’ve chosen, successful, because it’s always a growing success. I think that it’s really important to always be a learner and stay resourceful. If we if we know that then it keeps us more open and more honest with ourselves. And it kind of stifles the term imposter syndrome, which I think is on its way out for multiple reasons. But it does take that imposter feeling away from us because we know that we’re not trying to fake anything, we know we’re not trying to put on a front and we can just show up as as us. And in the day of the digital where I’m going on tangent. I’m almost done. In the day of this digital world. I mean, we’re desperate for humanity and desperate for connection and we’re so tired of seeing so many polished, perfect, unrealistic expectations, you know?

Laura

14:45
And social media does not help with that.

Peggy

14:47
It doesn’t and that’s where people sit with comparison. In my community, that was a question that came up recently. It was like, Oh, I don’t know how to market myself in this way, here. And my question was, why do you want to because it sounds like that person’s particular focus and like, you’re not going to reach your target market, putting all your eggs in social media, in fact, they don’t exist on social media, your target market can be found elsewhere. So I think that it’s important to note like, well, what is your main goal on social? Like, you know, is is that where you want to connect with people? Is that where you want to facilitate? Or is that where you want to get, I guess, corporate type of connect… like, it just really depends. So what’s your goal, because if you don’t have that targeted marketing goal, then you’re gonna put all of this energy somewhere and not get the results that you’re looking for. And it’s just going to defeat the whole purpose of what you’re after. And because you’re comparing yourself, that’s all that happens on there, is, Oh, well, I need to show up this way, because this person is doing it and they’re successful. Well, are they successful at exactly what you’re going after? And why? And who are they reaching on there? And what are they showcasing there? And do you see buyers on there saying stuff in the comments? No, you don’t you see people who are inspired by it, that pay no mind to your bottom line? So I think that’s just really important to note on social media.

Laura

16:21
Yeah, you can have a very successful business without having to have 100,000 followers.

Peggy

16:26
It came up recently in a chat I had with people. It’s like, well, Peggy, you can say that? Because you have that? And it’s like, yeah, but if you think about it, my target market is on Instagram. Like it is there. That is my target market. So you see me showing up this way. But that doesn’t mean that that’s the right path for you. It just, it depends. So the more the sooner we can focus, the better there which we can elaborate on later. But yeah, anyway, my starter that’s that’s what I did tangent, but it’s basically comes down to.

Nikki

16:57
Well, yeah, let’s go back to you… you started teaching on Skillshare, you won the teacher challenge. And that got you, you know, that got you a lot of

Laura

17:08
a lot of visibility and excitement over teaching.

Nikki

17:11
Visibility. Yes, thank you words are hard. And then what was next for you and your business.

Peggy

17:19
So I started looking at numbers, I actually didn’t gauge it for very long, which I know probably wasn’t the smart move. But I watched her about two months. By that point, I had left that office job, I went back to a little salon, waxing salon, and it was fine in between clients, I would work on this stuff, you know, and I would plan and it was, it was exciting. But on my bucket list I only ever had one thing on my, I’m like, I gotta have a actual bucket list. But I had one thing and that was it. And that was to write a book one day. And I had improved more and more. I taught a few more classes. In that time, it was probably a two to three month period before I ended up quitting my job and going full time. And I want to elaborate on that. But I did I wrote a book in between clients, and I’m excited to share that story too. Oh, gosh, I just want to share so much.

Laura

17:19
We wanna hear it.

Peggy

17:19
So, yeah, I think first of all, watching those numbers grow, and quitting. I mean, I think like six months minimum should be what people watch to make sure that that’s sustainable. But I know myself and I know that like, I personally have a personality that if I put energy into it, I know and trust the process. So I was already watching that happen. But the fact that I was working was taking like, I just felt so much of a burden. So when I quit my income tripled, like the next month, and it’s because I had so much focus at that point and nothing holding me back as a burden to take away from that. So I quit when I knew I could scrape by like I knew that the income I was making would be sustainable enough because it was growing. And maybe not substantially but enough to where okay, I know this this trend that’s happening. I’m putting out more content, I started putting out little practice sheets and cute things like that. And at the time those were going like crazy. And so it was just like, I see this opportunity, I’m going to take it. So it you know, of course it’s scary, but at the same time, like when something is scary, and everything relies on you and you have a route to take like you’re gonna make it work. There’s never a time we…

Nikki

17:19
Please do. Yeah. Because you have to.

Peggy

19:46
Yeah, so I went for it. And the second part of that that I want to just share about the book was this was really hard for me because I felt really good about the path that I was going in this book and I made sure that anything that already existed on the market, it would be different from it. So I went out, I bought every book I could about calligraphy that I could find that might be somewhat relatable. I skimmed through all of them, and I made sure my topics were they were different, or they were more specific to brush lettering, which I didn’t see on the market at that time. It was just modern calligraphy pointed pen. And I was about halfway through it, including artwork, everything that you know, went along with it, and I pitched and I pitched to a handful of publishers and I either got no’s, or I got, you know, this isn’t going to fit with what we have lined up, but what about something like this and so, you know, a counter-proposal, but I was really stubborn, and I really wanted this book to come to fruition. And I, you know, in hindsight, I do now love to pivot, I will say that, I think that that’s opportunity, for sure. But at this time I was really stubburn. I mean, I’m stubborn, but I was really stubborn. And I at that point was like, you know, what, I have started to establish myself, I know self publishing exists. I just because I have all these no’s doesn’t mean it can’t be successful. Because, you know, I have, I know I can be resourceful myself. And this world is built on, at least the current world is built on massive entrepreneurs who who go for it. And so I’m like, Oh, I’m gonna do it, I’m gonna do it. I did. And it became, it was the ultimate brush lettering guide, it was self published. And it was terrible quality. Because that was what was available at the time. It’s, it’s improved since then. But gosh, that was disheartening when I got my first copy. But either way, I had a very supportive community and decided to, I’m just going to also share tips as I share this, but I wanted the book to be a success. So I ended up ordering a bunch of copies and sending them out to people in my network to both share and put up reviews on the day of release, because I knew that that was gonna be

Laura

22:17
Lmart.

Nikki

22:17
It’s very smart.

Peggy

22:18
Yeah. And it’s, it helps with algorithm to, you know, when something launches, if it gets a lot of action in that very first day or week, that’s what’s gonna bump it. So it was number one new release. And then it was number one best seller for a while in the category. And I’m not kidding you. This is the best part. A couple months later, as a portion of those publishers I had initially reached out to came back and said, you know, hey, congratulations on publishing this book, we would love to take it on and distribute it with our whatever. And I was like, Oh, is that right?

Nikki

22:57
Oh, now, you want to talk to me.

Peggy

22:59
And I’m like, you know, I see those numbers, too. I didn’t say that. But I see those numbers, too. I’m good. I don’t actually need you, as it turns out. And then of course, a year and a half later, they were still doing well. And I had a publisher that I didn’t reach out to at the time, it was my dream publisher through, Boutique from Penguin Random House. And they reached out and wanted to take on both those books and do a new one. And I was like, Okay, this point a year and a half in, like, I’m ready to do this and get more distribution and better packaging, and you know, better quality books. So that was cool. You know, like, that was just a matter of like both things. I took it in my own hands. Was I seasoned? No, did I have a ton to learn? Totally. But when we have an idea for a project, it’s just like, why not start and then see later, like, just start the project? Yeah, because it’s doors, right? Yeah, the doors will open as you go. And you’ll start to be more and more resourceful because you’ll be in it like you’ll be in that space of, you know, you have focus, whereas letting that idea sit there like one day I want to write a book. I don’t know enough. I don’t know, formatting. I don’t know this, and this in this, well, I started and I learned. So there are resources that will make things easier at this point. But also there’s a lot to say about being a self starter, because it’s going to make you resilient, it’s going to make you, it’s going to build up competence, because you’re going to really know all of the moving parts because you’re gonna have to go through it. And as much as I love the idea of having resources, I have to have that like, oh gosh, what’s the word for it? Conviction of, of knowing this process and knowing exactly, just feeling more confident in my decisions, basically. Well, it certainly has worked for you. Well, I’ve learned a lot, I will say, I’ve been quite humbled over the last, you know, five, five years, probably six years, but five years, especially when I started focusing. But yeah, I think that that was the big open door for me it was I wanted to share. I realized I wanted to share. And when I followed that path, doors started organically opening, it wasn’t something that I, you know, sought out because I saw that it was successful. It was like, No, I can’t keep this in. Like, I love this so much. And I love connecting with people who also love it. And then when I see light bulbs go off for them, that feeds me, it’s like this fuel, and it’s my own, I don’t know, like, see, it just is so exciting. For me.

Laura

25:50
Yeah, I mean, that that passion led you to teaching, it led you to the books, I’m sure it’s led you to creating digital products that you sell, you know, your own your own membership. There’s just so much that that passion has brought out and led you to new opportunities, and you don’t you didn’t know those opportunities were going to be there at the beginning.

Peggy

26:09
No idea. Yeah, no idea. And.

Laura

26:12
Yeah, you just had to get started.

Peggy

26:13
And it’s not like, you know, they don’t fall in your lap. either. It’s, it’s we have to trust our gut and trust our own intuition. Like if we have this idea, that seems like a perfect branch off of what we’re doing. Even if it seems scary, because it could be a slight shift, or a slight pivot, like, trust it, like lean into it, because you never really you never know it. But at the end of the day, it’s if you have passion in it, nine times out of 10, that’s what people are buying into, it’s not necessarily, you know, the end result. And that’s why I think there’s room for everybody, because we all show up differently. And we all have, like, we all have our own story. And we all have our own way of, you know, putting anything into the world, even if it’s silent, even if it’s through artwork, you know, it’s it’s our own unique way. And so when we lean in and trust our passion, and stop trying to do something someone else is doing well, like they already do that thing really, really well. You’re not going to do it better than them, because that’s them. So trusting our own direction, I think is really is important.

Nikki

27:25
Well, and your excitement about sharing it with everybody comes through and just hearing you tell the story. So I mean, that’s attractive.

Peggy

27:33
Yeah, yeah, I think. Yeah, and I think it resonates, I think it’s something that is, is relatable. So when I can share that part, if someone can break out of that mindset of feeling stuck, that comes down to the 90/10. Like, your 10 is going to expand significantly. Like you’re gonna you’re gonna pump a lot into that 10%.

Laura

27:55
Well, you mentioned the word passion. And one of the things that I love about you, Peggy is that you are multi-passionate, you don’t have just, we’re talking a lot right now about calligraphy, because that was your start. But you then developed into so many other areas, because I know you’ve done digital and Procreate-type art, you’ve done watercolor, you’ve gone down a lot of different paths. And I think that’s something a lot of people think isn’t available to them, because they’re told over and over and over and over again, to be successful, you have to niche down. And so can you tell us a little bit more about how you kind of went from the calligraphy on to some of these other things and how you were able to do that successfully?

Peggy

28:37
Yes, I actually wrote notes beforehand, because I knew we were going to talk about multi-passionate, passionate, see, that’s the word I’ve made up just now. But being multi-passionate, I know that that’s something that I hear a lot of, and it, I’m gonna hesitate a little because I know that it’s hard. And, you know, this is something that is definitely, it’s hard. It’s hard for everybody, but I know it’s it’s harder for a lot of folks than it was for me and I’m not saying that for any reason other than I have a personality of achieving, and like I don’t promote hustle culture by any means. But I have like an innate hustle I can’t ignore and I also have like, I think maybe because what we were talking about, you know, coping mechanism was like, I don’t fear a lot. And so for me, it was easier. So it’s easier said than done. But in that process, I have been able to work with so many people who want to achieve stuff and get to know exactly what stands in their way and figuring out ways to kind of combat that. And because I have a really major soft spot for for that space, especially when someone it’s just not in their natural inclination to know how to aggressively pursue something, and I hate to use that word. But that’s kind of how I got myself like I am a very much a go getter. But it, you don’t have to be that way in order to achieve especially, especially as a creator, I think that being a creative automatically means that we have so many interests. And that could mean for our personal life, it could mean for our, our, you know, art focus. But what I will say, and while I don’t love niching, whatever your first focus is, and like you guys said, you know, mine was calligraphy, that’s what you’re going to be known for. So even if you want to, or do pivot later, even if you do branch off differently, make sure that the work that you put out into the world, if you want to be you know, achieve anything like that, that’s what you’re going to primarily be known for. It just is the case.

Nikki

31:05
That’s interesting. I never thought of it that way. But it makes sense.

Peggy

31:08
Yeah, because that’s when you start to really establish some sort of reputation, I guess. And it’s all in a name too, which you know, the pigeon letters, it’s it’s talking about letters, it’s talking about lettering and calligraphy. And so that was something that’s something that I still it’s interesting to get introduced, especially on podcasts, where you know, she’s a modern calligrapher. Like, yeah I am, you know, that I’m like, when’s the last time? So I actually recently started doing integrating that more in my social space, because I’m like, gosh, when’s the last time I did any calligraphy and shared about it, and I love it still, but it’s just like you do you naturally pivot. So I think that’s really important is to like, know what you love and really try to forecast, am I going to love this later, as well. But then when it comes to niching, this is, I hate that I’m saying this. But you do have to find and focus on a niche in order to like un-niche is what I’ll say. So I know. And the reason for that is because you can side hustle all day long, but at that point, it’s a side hustle. So it what you put in the world, is it going to sustain you? Or is it going to busy your mind? And the more buckets and more whatever analogy that I want to use, metaphor? Whatever, whatever I want to use, as far as putting your toes in buckets, or puddles or whatever that is, the more divided your attention is. And when your attention is divided, your focus, it’s so easy to lose that and this is coming from somebody who has very poor focus, because I’m hyperstimulated. Like I think about multiple things all the time. And it’s like, well, how do you take action when your mind is just ruminating in circles? So

Nikki

33:01
Yeah, why don’t you answer that question you just posed? How do you?

Peggy

33:04
How? And it is it is, it is by allowing yourself focus. And so that can mean a number of different things. And for me, it was it was in regard to teaching, and it was on calligraphy. And I really focused on that for a while and established that part of myself. And then as somebody who. I wouldn’t say I got bored with it. I am someone who gets bored. But I also like, I don’t like to, I don’t like to master anything, because I like to start integrating more because I just I can’t stop thinking about all the things I want to do. Like how many how many of us hoard art supplies before we ever start to make it a thing? Like, it’s… We have a whole episode on that. Oh yeah. And so thinking about that, it’s like, Oh, I’m gonna keep this yarn, because one time I – this is not a joke. Like 10 years ago. I made those. What do they call them? They’re like hand knit cowl scarves or something. Where are hand? Are you doing with your hands? I don’t even know. Oh, I love it. I busted out like 20 of them gave them as gifts for the holidays. And I’m like, I’m going to keep all this yarn. So I just bought so much of it. So I’m like, Ooh, this is gonna look really cool. Or this is going to integrate? I don’t know. Um, yeah, I still have that yarn. I shouldn’t I have not touched it in that entire time. But what if one day I get this? It’s like no, just buy new yarn then. Like donate this yarn. Buy the new yarn when you want to, like why am I not okay, this just taught me and to getting rid of that yarn.

Laura

34:40
I don’t know. This was like potkettle situation here because like, yeah, I have all the supplies. Just in case.

Nikki

34:48
She has all the supplies.

Peggy

34:51
Okay, so that yarn is out. I feel good about that. Thank you for this, this organization purge.

Nikki

34:57
You’re welcome. That’ll be $250 please.

Peggy

34:59
Exactly. Oh man, talking about sometimes you just get there. So I had that problem, but I did focus. But then I started to pivot. And I was like, starting to doodle. And I thought, oh, I can add this in by having these fun directions on, like, how are we going to integrate line drawing into our calligraphy to kind of bring it to life more. And oh, banners, banners never go out of style. Banners are great to draw, they bring something to life, they spotlight it and then putting florals around that, that’s just plain fun. So I put a class out on adding flair to your modern calligraphy and that ended up pushing me into botanical line drawing. And when I did that, I made a class on it. But I also started putting instructionals, little step by steps. And they were performing so much better than anything else I was putting out, whether it be blog, or Instagram, or what you know, wherever I was putting it. And so I looked at those numbers. And I’m like, I’m sitting here doodling these step by steps without any instructions, people are loving them they perform so well I see results.

Nikki

36:19
And where were you putting these, on Instagram?

Peggy

36:20
Yeah on Instagram and on my blog, and I thought, You know what, this is another book. And I am going to still put these out here, but I’m going to do it strategically now. And I’m going to build up to now there’s a book of 200 of these. And I self published that. And it went through the same success as the first – actually more success than the first one. And I found out that a lot of bullet journalers were buying it and I was not in that category at all. So it was really interesting to see myself like organically cross network which out you know, without even knowing so, right, that was like trusting the process. And that book is now it’s still my best seller out of anything. Even the stuff that’s brand new. It still does really, really well because there’s no text, it’s just like straightforward. Easy doodles, which reaches everyone. It reaches kids, it reaches hobbyists it reaches people who like to DIY gifts. And it just put me in spaces I didn’t expect and that was because I trusted I just trusted the process. I did what I enjoyed doing and it reached people I didn’t even think about.

Laura

37:36
This was the botanical line drawing book?

Peggy

37:38
Uh huh. Yeah.

Laura

37:39
I own that one, actually.

Peggy

37:42
Yeah, see? Oh, it’s it’s great. And it’s, it’s funny, because I hear people like, how do you start to think about different flowers when you start to draw flowers, and I’m like, I don’t resort to the same three flowers every time and I will reference my own book, no joke, so that I get out of that space. And think like, Okay, this these are not the only three flowers that exist,

Peggy

, like, we can we can branch out from here and like, oh, yeah, oh, yeah. But what I like mostly, and I’m, I’m going into teaching, I won’t do this, don’t worry. But what I like about, I can’t help myself. I like to overshare like, you guys are gonna learn how to draw a flower right now? No, I’m just kidding. When you draw something…

Nikki

38:28
We draw flowers all the time too, by the way.

Peggy

38:30
As you should.

Nikki

38:31
As we should.

Peggy

38:33
I won’t should you, I’m sorry. But as you could. As anyone has the ability to, has that opportunity. But when you start drawing and do line drawing at different angles, you start to like build up a muscle memory that you didn’t realize you were doing. So then at that point, you can look at 3d objects and start to like, make them two dimensional in your head, because you’re looking at main contour lines. And I thought that was really cool too. Because it’s like empowering without telling people that that’s what’s happening and seeing where people take that and branch off. It’s just really fun. It’s really fun. But one more thing about how that evolved because I think it’s it was definitely an evolved process that was very organic. I want to really emphasize that like I did not do what I thought was going to trend. I did stuff I liked and then saw results. Speaking of seeing results, this part was really funny because I would occasionally post or share even just little snippets of like watercolor blogs with like literally just color swatches with accompanied with line drawing. And I can’t tell you it was like it was it was a couple of months, how many emails I would get or direct messages of when are you going to put out a watercolor florals class and I’m like, what? Who ever planted in any one’s mind that I know how to watercolor? Like I did not understand brush strokes, I understood nothing. So I’m like, Okay, this question will not stop, like, I want to give the people what they want. Do I have interest in this? Yes. If I didn’t, there’s no way I would have done it. And that’s really just, it’s important because you have to put the work out that you want to end up creating later, because that’s what people are going to, that’s where the demand is going to start as what you put out there. Yeah. Anyway, so I had interest.

Nikki

40:33
Yeah, I’ve actually, I’ve actually said many times, don’t get known for things you don’t want to do.

Peggy

40:38
Exactly. And that happens so much like people will start therapy, and then they’ll start doing like mockup logo design, and then they hate it, or they’ll start doing because it’s pretty these like staged styled shoots of wedding place cards, and spreads, and then they end up in the wedding industry.

Nikki

40:58
And then that’s what people want to hire you for.

Peggy

41:00
And then they’re in the industry for a year. And they’re just like, I can’t like some people love it, but I’ve heard so… you either love it, or you really despise it. I’ve heard both. So it’s like, really be careful about that. But as far as watercolor, I did have interest, like, obviously, I have painted blobs all the time, but I’m like, Okay, fine. So I boot camp myself, and I was like, I’m gonna learn loose florals. That’s, that’s the style I like, that’s what I want to learn. And that’s what I’ll turn around and teach. And so I just want to really plant this for people to know that like, you don’t have to be an expert, you share what you know. So I learned I gave myself a month. That was it. And then I turned around and taught a class, it was a month. So I didn’t know a lot. But what I did know, and when I did practice, I knew that I could articulate that well for people. And that, honestly, that’s all that needed to happen because I had confidence in the little that I did know. And that turned out to be great. And now I have books on watercolor too. So it’s just opening doors.

Laura

42:02
Well, and people don’t realize that you don’t have to be a total expert, you can be 10% ahead of somebody else and be able to teach them great things, because you’ve just been through that process.

Peggy

42:14
Totally. And it and it’s fresh…

Nikki

42:16
And that we talk about that all the time, that that’s what makes you I think more relatable than somebody who, you know, I’ve been doing watercolor for 30 years, and I’m so far ahead. And so I think just being a little bit ahead makes you a lot more relatable.

Peggy

42:33
Yeah, and I mean, there’s still stuff I learned later, like, you know, talking about types of watercolor, because I didn’t have that, you know, knowledge at that time. And so being able to bring people on that journey and like, I don’t think I ever misled people, because I would always be honest about now, this is all that I’ve used so far. These are the these are the things that I’ve I’ve noticed from this, but I do recommend experimenting for yourself, so you know what you like the best. And that’s just me being honest. And you know, then I also what I like about doing something right away, whether it be teaching or something else, I’m trying to make this more blanketed. So it’s not just about teaching, but it’s like sharing the process of like, this is what I noticed in the process of what I was doing. And I think sharing that whether it be like, you know, a piece of art, limited or limited run or even, you know, original or whatever, sharing that part of yourself, it’s putting meaning basically behind what you’re doing, instead of just a pretty picture. You’re putting an experience behind it. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve looked something up on Etsy to purchase and the description is what sells me it might be the exact same product style or look, it might be and one thing is like you know double the price, but if they share with me the process of how they went through this like okay, my favorite example is by I wish I could remember Botanical Isle, I think that’s what they’re called on Etsy. So I was looking for a moss necklace like a where they capture moss in the little globe ball. I just wanted one and so I searched and then I found that if anyone looks this person up, look at just read you will be drooling, just reading their descriptions of how these pieces come to fruition. Like I know exactly where the moss was low it’s there’s like words for even sampled or taken or whatever like that, that they use that it’s just like, Oh, I feel like I’m there. I feel like when I wear this I like in this misty castle space like on an early dawn, you know, it puts it puts you there and so connection and just coming back to that space like that’s what we buy into. And so being able to walk through the process of actual experience, whether it be beautifully polished, like that description of a product or whether it be Hey, these are the things that I I learned in this process and it was actually really interesting to, you know, my growth as an artist. People want to know that stuff. So that’s another part of starting when it might feel like you’re not ready or like you’re not necessarily seasoned enough or qualified. Real quick, though, oh, I know, I keep doing this. When it comes to like art work, okay, I’m just gonna say this, I love me some Target. But when people think that they are not good enough, I’m gonna air quote this, when they think they’re not good enough, and they resist putting art into the world because of that, just walk into Target and just look. Some of its really good, but when it came to calligraphy, I was like, Oh, snap, like, I could do this exact same thing. But then comes a time where you’re like, Oh, snap, I could do this exact same thing better. But you know, think about, think about also some of our favorite artists and the types or, or what we’re drawn to like those quirky illustrations, where proportions are intentionally off, like, I wonder if the person that started as that artist accidentally had proportions off, or if it was intentional, or it was a style growth? Like who knows, but that’s what they’re known for now. And people seek that, like, our minds want to do things so realistically, because that’s what we see. But art is interpretation. So how can we take that through our own unique eye and capture that vibe on paper? So that we can, you know, it’s putting through the cycle of our creativity. So what are we striving for something we’re ourselves to? No, no, no, no, no, that’s where it comes down to us. And you’ll see, like, in my own work, so much experimentation on that, even today, it because I enjoy it, you know, but I think that there’s really something to say about coming into your own, where you start to realize, okay, I’m going to create the same thing, 10 different ways. And I’m just going to challenge myself, my first three are going to be my instincts, probably. And then I’m going to start to really break out of that and force myself into the uncomfortable, and then you might just, you might start to see your style, develop, not even on purpose. And then doing the same thing with color palettes, like working in a set of 12, whatever it is, but only using three colors, and then do it and then you know, resetting doing that, again, three new colors, 12 different things, and then you just start to like, really see what you gravitate toward. And when I started doing that, when it comes to niching, I started to see that like, I can have, I can do whatever I want. Because these colors show up in my work. And the color theme is what that like common thread is, if that makes sense. And then it becomes I can do whatever I want. I’m repeating myself I know. But basically

Nikki

48:02
Well, that’s okay, that makes me think of one of the things that I read on your website. Speaking of doing whatever you want is the way you say you grew your business by breaking rules. And you know that you can show us how we can do that, too. So I mean, that whole attitude of do whatever you want, break the rules. I love that.

Peggy

48:22
Yeah. Well, I really believe it. Um, and yeah, you do have to have a focus on a niche in order to un-niche for sure.

Nikki

48:30
Elaborate on that a bit if you can.

Peggy

48:31
Yeah. So for me, it was lettering, and then moved into botanical line drawing moved into watercolor. So I trusted the process, but it was focusing on teaching. Now I will, I’m going to use an example that was harder for me, because at the time, I hadn’t been established as an artist, necessarily, I had been established as an educator. So I think it was two years ago now, maybe three, gosh, time. I told myself this year, I have, you know, something sustainable right now, which is my teaching, I want to license my work. Like, I want to see it on products. I want to see it in the world. And I really, I don’t know what it was, it was like in that moment, I really needed that for myself and it wasn’t easy. I’m not you know, I’m not gonna lie. It wasn’t easy. I was able to develop a process to where, you know, I knew how to find the people I wanted to reach. It wasn’t just like an empty general mailbox. Basically, if anyone’s going to do this, if you just research. Like you just have to research a little bit and you’re going to find these spaces. So I reached out to people directly and most of the time, I will say I got no response at all. And that’s common for people to not get any response, people are really busy. Or I got no’s and sometimes I got yeses or you know, maybe later this isn’t the right time or the right fit for what we’re focusing on something like that. During that year, I never took no for an answer. I put them on a spreadsheet. And mostly the spreadsheet that I created for outreach was the type of communication I had or didn’t have. And notes on alerts basically on when to reach out again. And I visited this weekly for like six months or something, and that list grew. And it was great because I started submitting work to… if I didn’t hear back, you’re getting work from me every two weeks. Like, that’s what’s happening. Because I’m going to show up in your inbox, you’re going to start to get to know me, it’s like, think about how busy people are, if they’re not ready to take you on, they might not have time to respond. But if you show up and show up and they start to get to know you and your work, they might have a project on their end that just clicks and it’s like, Okay, finally now we have a space to do this. And I would get sometimes emails that would say like, oh, okay, Peggy, we’ve been trying to figure out a way you know, that we could incorporate what you do. And we actually finally have the perfect opportunity for it. I can’t that came up a lot. And it was exciting for me because it’s like, okay, so my what’s the word I’m looking for? Oh, it’s like, basically my my drive to continue to come back and come back.

Nikki

48:47
Persistence.

Peggy

49:53
Yes. Thank you. Why is that so hard right now?

Nikki

51:27
Word, words.

Peggy

51:29
So yeah, that really, really paid off. And it might not be every two weeks for people like that might feel overkill. I know, a month goes by really fast. So maybe it’ll be monthly for some folks. And it’s like, it’s simple. You’ve already introduced yourself in the main email. Now you’re doing follow up. So it’s like, Hey, John, hope you’re doing well. I just wanted to send over some new work that I’ve done in the last month. I’m excited because of this, and would love to do a collaboration, basically, this is what I see us doing together, you’re giving them the idea. They don’t have to think about it. If they don’t like it, then they can always turn around and counter and say like, oh, well, maybe not that. but what about this, because it’s showing that you are not just like, please take my work, it’s more like you are giving them in it like you’re you’re showing that you’re a good worker that you’re actually focused on specifics, which is helpful for that.

Laura

52:24
So when you’re submitting to them, or you submitting like mockups then of like how you see your, your artwork on their products

Peggy

52:31
I did before and I didn’t later because a lot of times these these people are so used to being on their end to where they can, they can visualize and see. So I found that it was actually more beneficial to share just art. And in you know, thumbnails, so I would create a PDF that was one or two pages, sometimes three, depending but two is perfect. You have like five to nine images, maybe on what each page and like that’s it. And it’s sometimes it was like, you know, standalone art, sometimes it was a cohesive color palette, that would look like a collection, sometimes it was patterns, I did try to keep them themed, so that they didn’t go all over the map. And so each time would be, you know, maybe one page was a focus on this type of art. And then the other page was a focus on this type so that they could see some consistency, even if I did have multiple styles. And that way they could just, you know, have a better visual of what it would look like. But no, I mean, you don’t even have to be a surface pattern designer to submit to some of these design companies, because they’ll just take existing artwork, and take the layers and repeat on their end, I found out later and I was like, really? It’s that you know, that easy, huh? And that’s not always the case. It’s really not but sometimes so yeah, I think it’s nice to have mockups, but it’s also unnecessary most of the time. So yeah, I hope that takes some burden off of folks. Because from my experience anyway, I’ve talked to a lot of these people over that year.

Nikki

54:10
Yeah, we’ve heard that advice a lot from other people that we’ve spoken to.

Laura

54:14
Yeah. So what kind of products has your art been on?

Peggy

54:17
So I’ve done a lot of like photo books.

Nikki

54:21
Well, wait, before you say that. I want to hear about your first Yes, because you got all of these either no’s or no response. Tell us about your first yes.

Peggy

54:30
Man. I don’t even remember.

Nikki

54:34
Just one that stands out.

Peggy

54:36
Okay. I actually did not go through with this company. So I’m not going to mention who it is, but I’ll mention what it was. And the only reason was because I knew that they weren’t used to working with designers and the amount of revisions or changes that were happening. At one point I was like this is just too much work for what it’s worth, but it was a cell phone case company. That’s all they do, that’s what they’re known for. And really, really big name. Like everybody knows who they are, which is why I want to mention because I don’t remember, we it just, it just never came to fruition. And I don’t remember if there was an NDA involved or not so, but I will say, the back and forth, they hadn’t clearly worked with any art, you know, actual designers other than like, what was in house, and it was, honestly, I think it was like, they’d buy stock photos and use photos most of the time. So I was like, let’s do art on your cases. And they were all about it. And it was really cool. Because I’m like, you know, it was just I see products. I’m like, you know, what would be really fun. And then we ended up doing a lot of mock ups. But it wasn’t that they didn’t like them. It was just they kept changing their mind like, well, what if we did this instead? So I, during this process learned very quickly that you always want to take a deposit. So luckily, they did, they did have a deposit that they put in, but at one point, I was like, you know, we’ve done so many revisions, I’ve created X amount of artwork for you. I do need to charge you for my time at this point. Like I’m really lenient, but when it comes to like, brand new designs, come on, guys. So yeah, I actually backed out of that, even though I pitched then.

Nikki

56:18
Well, good for you for taking care of yourself, and not just letting people walk all over your boundaries.

Peggy

56:23
Yeah. And it’s, it’s really hard when it’s a big opportunity like that, I will say, but more will come up. They just will, and the big yes, that I was so excited about. So silly, but it’s like I find products that I love, you know, like things that I love. And I’m like, How can I work with these people, like, artists have opportunities to work with people in so many ways, in so many ways, like whether it be on product, or whether it be a license that they use as a graphic on their social or something, but Allbirds Shoes, I was like, I’m obsessed with you guys, we need to do something, like just something and I didn’t know what that would entail. Like I had pitched them, but I was like, so vague. I’m like, Well, I don’t know, maybe this or this or this. But I think they sensed my enthusiasm. And they ended up not just collaborating with me, but hiring me for two pieces of art that they shared on their social. But it was cool because it was during their launch. And so they used my art for, and they hired me for like a really loose and playful kind of splatter watercolor piece. And it was their color peacock of a shoe. And so I have a peacock that was like a hybrid, that where the wings were actually the shoe. And it was so much fun. Then the other one. I’m sharing this on purpose, because for people who are multi-disciplined or multi-passionate, they hired me for a bold repeat pattern of all the colors of their shoes, which was a completely different style. So that was kind of cool. Because it’s like, okay, I don’t have to be one note for them to hire me. And they’re going to use different techniques that I love to do. So that was really cool. And they did leave it on me to come up with ideas. And so I did pitch kind of in a okay, if we did this route, these are some ideas and we did this route, these are some ideas. So they picked from two categories, which I did not expect. So that was fun.

Laura

58:20
Very cool.

Peggy

58:21
Yeah. And it’s just it just comes down to like reaching out to people and seeing what can happen.

Laura

58:27
And it’s okay, if you get it, it’s actually really great practice to do what you’re saying tracking it on a spreadsheet pitching and saying it’s okay to get no’s get used to getting no’s because you’re gonna get some yeses, which is amazing, right? So why don’t we pivot real quickly and talk about the these, this is your artwork on other people’s products. But let’s talk about creating your own products, because I know that you actually have your own brush line and you’ve created that. So how did that come about and your own monoline pen line as well.

Peggy

58:55
I’m so passionate about this. I’m going to try really hard not to make this too long, you guys know I’m chatty. Okay, so I’m so passionate about this. I was so excited. When I started like actually building a platform because I could use, I can start to infuse the things that were important to me in some way or another. So first of all, any money that comes into me there’s a percentage that’s donated to a different nonprofit every single month that is working toward the sustainability, rehabilitation of wildlife. And it’s for multiple reasons. But animals let’s be real, they are so much better than people, but also.

Nikki

59:40
Amen.

Peggy

59:41
They’re exploited and we have the technology now, where we don’t need to, we don’t need to utilize animal fur especially, specifically Kolinsky Sable, and this came about when I kept seeing over and over so many watercolorists using Kolinsky Sable brushes. So this is like a in the weasel family. They farm them, and they’re on the brink of extinction. But they farm them in very cold environments. So they have a lot of fur, like, you know, so it doubles and gets longer or whatever. But they don’t actually use any part of that animal, I’m not gonna get graphic, but they don’t use any part of that animal. I do have resources on my website, under my, on my about page that you can click and read all about the practices of how animals are used in art supplies, it doesn’t get graphic there either, don’t worry, but there are, it just really does a deep dive into not just not just paint brushes, but other stuff too. So that we can make a conscious effort to not put those things in our supplies because we don’t need them. So this really prompted like a, okay, I want to also use good quality brushes that will work really well for brush lettering. So getting away from brush pens, really well for brush lettering, and I kept getting to the point of like liners, everyone’s using liners, because they’re long, and they work well. Well. Peggy doesn’t work well with liners. Peggy’s bad at liners, can’t do liners well. It’s embarrassing. I’ve tried. So I don’t know, it’s like a loading of the paint thing. And I just run out too fast. And it’s just, it’s embarrassing. And I was like, I’m done trying. Some people are great at it, I watch their stuff, and I am envious to all whatever I’m sure if I’d practice I’d get better. But I don’t I don’t have the patience. So I was like, gosh, there’s got to be brushes. So I bought everything that I could that was synthetic. And a lot of them are like, they’re just, they’re fuller, they’re shorter. And so I thought if, if these exist, and this technology exists, how hard would it be, to be able to come up with brushes that worked well, held a lot of paint still, but also worked really well with a quick snap back, longer bristles and a really, really, really find tip point, so that they did work well with lettering. So that I did have like more bristles in the body of the brush so that I could get really good downstrokes whereas I cannot do with liners. And it also holds more pain and more. So it was like problem solving. I didn’t think about my own brushes until I like identified all the things I wanted in a brush and couldn’t find it. So it took me like just under two years, it was not easy. And actually I think that’s pretty fast for coming up with what I wanted. But it was like, I cared about it being sourced from the States, you know, I didn’t want to go overseas, I cared about it being eco conscious, I wanted them to be wood I wanted them to be… I didn’t want any shedding. I was very particular. And so the that long it took researching manufacturers, but it also took samples and being able to order a lot of samples and have a lot of no or almost or let’s change this and this. And finally I got a batch that I was like this is it. This is it. And I, this is so exciting. Oh my gosh, I was so excited and not being able to share this whole process. I mean, I could have shared but I didn’t want to because I wanted to be able to have the best quality. And I stand by this. And you can ask anybody like that uses them. Everyone’s like I want to see what all the hypes about I bought these and they’re, it’s legit. So I’m biased because I, I had something made that I wanted that I wanted for myself to purchase for myself that they’re the only brushes that I use. And so that’s how they came to fruition. And it was just a matter of just digging and going down the rabbit hole. And I wish that I could do that for everybody. It’s like, Well, where do you source your xyz? And it’s like, that’s not how it works. You know, the only way that it would be beneficial for me to tell you my sources is if you were making the exact same thing. And I’m not going to do that. But I will say, like if it comes to stickers, if somebody’s making stickers, of course, like why not share that kind of stuff, because it’s not going to be competing, but I will say it’s just being resourceful. It’s doing Google search after Google search after Google search for and, you know, nights for months and not finding anything taking a week break getting back on the horse like this is something you really want to do. And eventually it just worked out and now professional watercolorists are using these brushes and swearing by them and it’s just it, my heart is so happy because I cared so much about all of these parts of it. And I think they’re the reason I think they were successful initially was because of my excitement and that they’re cruelty free and vegan and sourced here in the US, but after a while, they sold themselves because everybody else was that like, that’s what people use, that have used them, they don’t go back. And I love that; it’s so exciting. So that’s kind of how that happened. And then it the same thing with the pens. I was using microns and I love microns, but they were created for drafting. So as artists, like our natural hand position is not 90 degree, you know, perpendicular to the paper, like, we have curves. And or we want curves, excuse me, we hold it an angle. And so that was another process and

Nikki

1:05:37
We have curves, too.

Peggy

1:05:40
Well, there’s a reason I say curves. But um, yeah, so I was like, Oh, is this another problem that I’m gonna solve for myself. So I wanted the same situation, I wanted fine liners, but I wanted the edges to be curved. That’s where curves give it. But so that we could apply a little bit of pressure, but mostly have the curves so that we could draw at an organic angle. And then I got to playing with those we’ve, we’ve sold out of, we’re sold out right now.

Nikki

1:06:12
Well shoot now you just made me want to buy some and your sold out.

Peggy

1:06:16
The’re gonna be back super soon. Super, super soon as of.. yes, don’t you worry. But yeah, so they are great. And I am, I guess I can say this. Now since it’s so close to the time, I am introducing two new sizes that have not been here for this entire time. So I’m very excited about that. I know. And it’s just fun. Anyway, my point is, I was problem solving for myself. So again, trusting my own process, being resourceful or not finding the solution, and then just deciding, hey, how hard is this, if other people can do this, why can’t I do this, and having something in the background that’s running on my behalf. So having that main focus, that helps me sustain my income allowed me to pivot and also do this research. Again, I said this was late nights, I didn’t say this was during the day. And so it does take extra work when you want to add these things on. But eventually, they start to self balance. And then that becomes part of your focus and bottom line that’s running in the background. And you can start to pivot into new things, too. So I didn’t try to do everything at once. But you can you can watch this process. And you can see how it just unfolded for itself. And yeah, I just leaned into it. And I trusted myself, I trusted my instincts about it. And I’ve communicated with people in the in the industry, whether they be learning from me or whether they be like peers of mine, whether they be is that even right? Grammar? But you know, and that’s so I trusted it, I just went with it. I went with my gut.

Laura

1:07:56
Well, trusting your intuition is huge. And a lot of us don’t do that. And in this case, like you said, problem solving and figuring out like the product you wanted for yourself knowing that if you want it that badly, somebody else is too.

Peggy

1:08:10
Right. Yeah. And that that was so exciting to share. So it was just another one of those things I was passionate about. I trusted, like I was confident in because I went through the process, it wasn’t like a Oh, I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna source from this random place and call it a day and they were affordable. And that’s why I’m using them like, because you’re not going to feel as confident and when you put your stuff out there. Like I have a lot of people who say, you know, where am I going to source notebooks and it’s like, there’s a ton of places. I mean, you could print on demand for sure. And use one of these like slap your design on their on their thing and then set it up to where it goes with your Etsy shop. But like, what if you wanted to create something that was more unique and you had like specifications? What’s your perfect journal or notebook? Like what what does that look like for you if you had your perfect notebook? And then if you dug a little bit, make it come to life, like the resources are there?

Nikki

1:09:06
That’s such great advice.

Peggy

1:09:08
Yeah, I just think that it’s it seems like it’s not doable. It seems like it’s not doable, because we don’t know anything about it. But it’s like, what did you do when you didn’t know how to create the art that you want to put on stuff? You were resourceful?

Nikki

1:09:20
You just tried it?

Peggy

1:09:21
Yeah, exactly.

Nikki

1:09:23
Yeah. So yeah, Laura and I have really only made things either by hand or used print on demand. I’m totally fascinated by how you get things manufactured.

Peggy

1:09:33
Yeah, don’t get me wrong, I love print on demand. I love em. And I also love especially for like prints, I have a printer, like an actual printer not like a company a printer. That prints really well and I was doing that. I’m not selling art myself right now but I did kind of pivot into even though the the cost went way higher. It was for me for what I do worth outsourcing to have it be automated so that it printed on this specific type of paper, and then it print it sent out on my behalf. So it was print on demand, drop shipping, but I so I love I love it if you source and you get samples first and you like the quality for sure. But when it comes to doing your own stuff, the big thing to remember is like, oh, man, I can’t recommend enough, going through a marketing course, any marketing course that’s going to force you to make a plan. Because if you have a plan, as far as when you’re creating the content, when you’re sharing the content, how you’re funneling people, whether that be through email, or just by piquing interest, you have to have that in place, you’re not going to put a shiny thing out there and it’s going to be an instant success, because you announced it. That’s just not how it works.

Nikki

1:10:50
Right? Sadly.

Peggy

1:10:51
Yeah, I learned this the hard way. It’s like maybe that day, maybe that week when people saw it, but that’s not going to be sustainable. So I know that investments are hard, but I do think that marketing, because people think that’s such a slimy word, they don’t like sales. You’re not, it’s not first of all, just put this in your brain, like it’s not slimy, it’s excitement about something that you’re putting in the world that you know, is going to benefit someone in some way. Like, that’s exciting, right. So if we can try to like reroute the way we think about it, and then pour our energy into learning about setting up some form of marketing, you can pick and choose, cherry pick what works for you. But you have to talk about the thing. And you have to talk about the thing all the time. So having direction that’s specific to do that and put it in place will hold you accountable to actually promote it. So that’s important, because when it comes to not print on demand stuff, there’s an MOQ. So this is called minimum order quantity. And you will run into very large numbers, and it will be much harder to source. That’s another part of this, like I’m a small business, it doesn’t matter how well my stuff is selling, I don’t have a team that’s setting up marketing for me, which is probably why you see little marketing from maybe because I don’t have the I don’t have the supply unless I it’s just like growth, right? So I have some work to do there, personally. Like I could make this a lot bigger by putting more into marketing and putting more into my MOQ. But I’ll be honest, I’m happy I have a big garage. This stuff is sitting on, on these, I have a whole bunch of stuff, lots of shelving, my partner does all the e-commerce, I don’t touch it, because I will send you the wrong thing. I’m just really bad. Knowing who and what and how to delegate that’s big. But yeah, I mean, it’s important for sure. So like, you might find the perfect thing, it’s gonna cost a lot, by the way, samples are not cheap. So just invest in it, it’s worth investing in samples, but being also very specific with your wants and needs. And your first review, I mean, you’re gonna note down every single thing that you might want to change, because the more specific you can be, the quicker your results will come about. And being really specific with the person that is, is doing everything just just overshare like you’re explaining it to a child, and that’s going to make sure that you cover all your bases. But yeah, I mean, MOQs you’re gonna find them. I mean, typically, if you go through a bigger company that has, you know, maybe overseas, you’re gonna find MOQ as of like, 2000, up to 5000 up to 10,000. Like, no, we’re tiny, we’re not gonna…

Laura

1:13:43
There’s no way we can support that.

Peggy

1:13:44
We don’t have room for thousands of things like, or are we even going to be able to push that many things? Like, how are we going to sell that? So MOQs are things to pay attention to, that’s a big one. So you might find them for like one or 200 maybe 500 And maybe that means you do have to sacrifice some of those design elements that you would have ideally liked. So it’s like, write down a list of your musts and write down a list of your this would be nice to have and go from there and just communicate. I know. So Kestrel from me Ink Me This, she’s great. She is a brilliant mind she creates her own products. It started off with building things by hand making really beautiful pointed pen holders that they like I don’t even know what the word is but they carve I guess in house so she started doing that and then she has she now has a ton of calligraphy products including an engraver and like ink stirrer and like stuff that’s mechanical, things that she ended up outsourcing but if you hear her story which we talked about in the Flock recently, my membership, but she said that it It really was a matter of like just inquiring. So she found or knew somebody who knew somebody who did something, I can’t remember what it was. And they were local. I wish I could remember what we were even talking about. But there’s a product she made that she just asked that person like, hey, if I wanted to make something like this, would that be something you would be able to manufacture for me? And it was just a yes. And they worked together closely. And it was just like, opportunity. So she was just thinking outside the box on that one. And now she has a local sorcer, that she’s supporting another, you know, local, small business, which I think is so cool. So yeah it’s not just like, oh, what’s the big company that’s going to manufacture this for me, it’s like, just thinking a little bit outside the box to push yourself to the things that matter. So it’s like first of all, really identify what you want, identify and then write down the musts and needs and then write down the, like, nice to have, not necessary, and then start researching. Because you’re going to be able to see, you know, a manufacturer’s capabilities, their minimum order quantity, and you’re going to start to be able to have a spreadsheet and cross them off the list and then have some maybe follow ups and just be on the research train for a couple months.

Laura

1:16:16
I mean, those are great, great examples of how to kind of get started, you know, in this process, and to think outside of the box for if you want to create your own product, and you have an idea of how to do that. Now, we hate to say this, but we’re nearing the end of our time together today.

Peggy

1:16:32
We could talk we could do this for weeks.

Laura

1:16:34
We could do it for weeks.

Nikki

1:16:36
We totally could. And it’s I’m getting like so many other ideas for episodes that we could talk to you about. But we want to we want we have some other questions for you that we kind of talked around and didn’t get to that I want to make sure we kind of go through quickly. The first thing which I meant to bring up way back at the beginning, when we started talking about your name, The Pigeon Letters, when you were talking about calligraphy and pivoting? Where did that name come from?

Peggy

1:17:04
I love this. I love this question. It is a quick answer. So first of all, number one, I love pigeons. Like I just love them. I think that they’re so cute. I love when they walk. I love how they’re just so plump. They’re just, I love, I love them. I don’t, I don’t, I also have always my whole life just kind of love the underdog. And I feel like the pigeon’s kind of the underbird and gets a lot of bad rap. But they are just oh man. They’re so cute. But besides that, they are, they’re really smart. And they’re they were the I believe that first homing bird. So, meaning they have homing abilities. So if they were transported to a certain place, they would be able to fly back to where they came from, which is really cool. So they were used back in the day, war times especially for delivering messages. And that was like when you know, snail mail wasn’t really a thing, when messaging was like, these messages that were delivered via pigeon, who would I love, were priceless. Like they were so important because they were, because of the process that it took to get these messages to people. So back and forth. So yeah, there would be a pigeon that would be taken to a certain space and then deliver a message and then maybe a message would go back on its little leg and it would fly back home. And I think that the meaning behind that is kind of it really resonates with my overall kind of line and values of what I want to put into the world.

Laura

1:18:42
I’m also picturing you right now in Trafalgar Square, like Mary Poppins style, like just surrounded by pigeons.

Peggy

1:18:50
That’s actually where I’m standing right now. You kind of nailed it. I don’t know how you don’t.

Nikki

1:18:58
That’s hilarious.

Peggy

1:18:59
I have a really good mic so you don’t hear them but yeah, so So the pigeon letters is a spin off of the pigeon post which is what the like what that was actually called.

Nikki

1:19:12
Nice. I love it.

Peggy

1:19:14
Yeah, so it worked out it worked out when I pivoted away from calligraphy because I’m like nope, it still works still works guys. Got lucky.

Nikki

1:19:22
Well, you can you can make it work for anything. And then that brings up your membership, which also it has a related name, The Flock Membership.

Peggy

1:19:32
Yeah, that was hard. I brainstormed for a real long time and mind map to that and on paper. It was just it was a hot mess. I still you know, I’m not gonna lie. I’m still kind of iffy on the name, but

Nikki

1:19:46
I love it.

Peggy

1:19:47
Do you? Okay. I do wanted to do something that was easy to remember but also inclusive of community. I know that a lot of communities are you know, they’re really focused and polished. And they’re also I don’t know, kind of, they come across a little more elevated than where we are as humans. And I didn’t want that at all. I wanted it to be just you say flock, and it’s like flock, like, it’s just kind of casual. And I just wanted people to feel like they can flock there. Oh my gosh, don’t pun me. Um, and then I came up with a bunch of acronyms. I almost called it the nest, which is abbreviated for nurturing every skill and talent.

Nikki

1:20:34
I like that one, too.

Peggy

1:20:35
Right. I liked that. I didn’t end up using that. I do have it as a category in there for resources. But yeah, I just thought that it would just like what’s bird related? What is human related? What’s my value? And how can I put that into a name that’s easy to remember. So there was a lot of brainstorming. But after doing that, narrowing it down and then asking people, flock is what came up. And now it’s like, what the flock and flock stars and that community themselves made this up. So it’s just it’s cute. Yeah, it’s worked.

Laura

1:21:09
I love it. What the flock?

Peggy

1:21:11
What the flock?

Nikki

1:21:13
I love it. I think we’re gonna have to adopt that phrase.

Laura

1:21:18
So tell us a little bit about what people find in that community. What do you offer in that community?

Peggy

1:21:24
Yeah I think the resources that are very difficult to find when it comes to entrepreneurship, whether it be art licensing, or contracts, or, you know, reaching out to people or having actual tangible things that they can keep track of things, spreadsheets that are done for you, workbooks that will help you identify and actually walk through a process of branding, like it really anything having to do with creative entrepreneurship and accountability. Those are delivered in the form of like lessons. But actually, this year, we’re doing a bit more. I’m really, really open to feedback, because I feel like it’s more of a collaborative cooperative, if you will, big C words. But it was the membership, but I was like, you know, I want this to be so much more community driven. So we’re doing a lot more lives. So before it was like, we just have these coaching calls and you submit questions, and I answer them during the coaching calls, which still happens. But I’ve actually extended that. So now it’s going to be if it’s not already, by the time this comes up, but twice a month, but then we also have a social hour, because we start to get to know each other, and we started to get kind of off track because you know, so that was happening. And so I was like, Nope, this is business, I want to help you. So we made a social hour so that we could all once a month get together and play and talk about anything that didn’t have to do with business, because these are our people, you know.

Laura

1:22:55
Play is important. Yeah, because we don’t really have that in our I don’t want to say in real life. But you know, in real life, because our we meet so many like-minded people online. So it’s like, let’s get together. And then we also introduced open studio where we’re all working on whatever we want to work on, but also casually chatting. So just having a communal workspace, and then also master sessions. So those didn’t used to be live, they were pre-recorded. Now they’re live so that we can have more engagement, where it mostly is me and another person having a conversation like industry leaders in and we have a set topic, something having to do with entrepreneurship, and we just do a deep dive. And then we have everybody live and they can ask questions. And it’s it’s awesome. It’s just overall a great resource for those of us who want resources in the starting or maintaining a business in this space. Oh, yeah, it sounds fabulous. Because, because you’ve already been to a lot of these places or, you’re able to share your experiences so that others might be able to benefit from that and not have to go through some of the same, you know, struggles or issues or yeah, whatever. Yeah.

Peggy

1:24:05
Because it can be such a struggle and can be so disheartening and on motivating and kind of it yeah, it’s stifling, really. And I don’t want that for people at all. Like I have no problem sharing the things that like I struggled with, because I happen to love researching and I happen to love failing, because it lets me learn how to do something better. That’s not for everybody. And I totally get that. So being able to help people not have to go through that is is really rewarding, I think, to see them just be able to do what they want to do and what they love to do. And that’s where the focus is because we all are already wearing a million hats. Let’s be real.

Laura

1:24:44
Oh for sure.

Nikki

1:24:45
Oh, yeah.

Laura

1:24:46
So what is one piece of advice that you would give to someone who’s just getting started?

Peggy

1:24:52
Do it before you think you’re ready? And

Nikki

1:24:55
Amen.

Peggy

1:24:56
Additionally, I will have a side that comes off of this, which is start and do the thing. But when I say start before you think you’re ready, it comes back to do the thing without knowing how, because you’re going to figure out how, as you as you’re in it, that’s what.

Nikki

1:25:17
That’s fantastic advice

Peggy

1:25:18
that I know. You know, I think it can be, I think it can be, and I think people would disagree with that. And I get that, but I stick to it.

Nikki

1:25:25
Eh, screw them.

Peggy

1:25:27
Yeah. I just think that like, we are resourceful human beings. And when we own, that maybe we did something that wasn’t like up to our own, whatever. And we don’t realize that until later, like, people are really receptive of that. And we’re all afraid of judgment and failure. But like when we just show up, and we’re real, like, that’s when that’s when it pays off, and you start to feel really good about what you’re doing.

Laura

1:25:53
That’s when the magic happens. Right?

Nikki

1:25:55
Exactly. Yeah. I so agree with that. Yeah. So as much as we hate to, we’re gonna have to kind of have to tie this up. All right, although I could talk all day. And maybe we will again, but but tell us for now, tell us where our listeners can connect with you online, and how they can get a copy of your fabulous new book, Mindful Sketching.

Peggy

1:26:18
Yes, absolutely. So that touches also on really being mindful in and of the energy and capturing where you’re at. In those moments, like right now. So that’s, it’s a magical space that I explored. And I’m so happy to finally share. So um, yeah, anything you look up as far as The Pigeon Letters goes, that’s, you’ll find it if it’s on thepigeonletters.com. If you want to find me anywhere else on the internet, it will be branched off from there. So my website is a great place to land. And the book anywhere books are sold. Oh, and quick, cute note. Anyone who’s International, just an FYI. If you’re international, bookdepository.com has like every book ever. And it’s free shipping worldwide. Just a hot tip.

Laura

1:27:06
I love them.

Nikki

1:27:08
Oh, yeah, that’sa fantastic resource.

Peggy

1:27:10
Right? So many people don’t know about them yet. And it’s like

Nikki

1:27:12
I forget about them. But yeah. And it’s like you try to order a book from the US in a different country. It’s like $25 for a book just to ship it. And it’s like, no, you don’t have to do that.

Laura

1:27:21
Yeah. They’re awesome. They’re totally awesome. Well, Peggy, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today.

Peggy

1:27:28
Thank you so much for letting me go off on all of my branches of talking. And I hope that this really resonated with people and makes people feel inspired. But really, thanks for having me. This is my favorite thing to do. Favorite.

Nikki

1:27:40
Well, you’re now our new favorite person. I mean, we already thought you were great. But now that we spent this time talking to you even more so. To learn more about Peggy and read today’s Startist Society show notes go to startistsociety.com/thepigeonletters.

Laura

1:27:59
If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, we’d love for you to leave us a five star rating and review.

Nikki

1:28:04
And don’t forget to share it with a friend.

Laura

1:28:07
Reviews help us reach more Startist like you and keep us inspired to create new episodes.

Nikki

1:28:12
Thanks for listening, and we’ll see you next week.