42 – Selling Digital Products with Lisa Glanz

This week Laura and Nikki chat with one of Laura’s favorite artists, Lisa Glanz. Lisa is a full-time illustrator with a passion for helping others achieve their creative goals. She loves producing professional resources for creatives, her textures and Procreate brushes are by far some of Laura’s absolute faves.

Mostly self-taught, Lisa has created a thriving art business and is a rock star on sites like Design Cuts and Creative Market. She thrives on sharing knowledge she’s gained, both as a business owner and an artist, with others through online courses and tutorials. And we’re super excited to share her story with you!

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Topics discussed

  • Lisa shares her journey from graphic designer to illustrator and teacher
  • Facing the fear and taking the leap from working for an agency to full-time freelancer
  • How she started making and selling her own digital art and assets
  • Developing her style and skills and the moment when everything clicked
  • Discovering the true driving force behind what she does
  • Expanding from large online marketplaces to selling through her own website
  • Filming tutorials and classes and getting past the fear of being on camera
  • Getting started with the Honest Designers Podcast
  • Taking small steps outside your comfort zone
  • Her newly released Easy-peasy Animal Drawing Kit
  • Laura and Lisa geek out on drawing with Procreate
  • Lisa shares a breakdown of her income and compares selling digital products to licensing your art
  • Tips on how to get found on marketplaces
  • What it’s like to work with Design Cuts
  • Dealing with having your work stolen
  • Building community and the importance of knowing your end customer
  • Lisa’s advice for artists who are just getting started

Laura

(00:00:00)
Hi, this is Laura Lee Griffin.

Nikki

(00:00:06)
And this is Nikki May with the Startist Society, inspiring you to stop getting in your own way and start building an art biz and life that you love.

Laura

(00:00:15)
We are artists who believe strongly in the power of community accountability, following your intuition, taking small, actionable steps and breaking down the barriers of fear and procrastination that keep you stuck.

Nikki

(00:00:30)
Follow along with us on our creative business journey as we encourage you on yours.
So, Laura, who are we talking to you today?

Laura

(00:00:41)
Well, today we’re speaking with one of my favorite artists, Lisa Glanz. Lisa is a full-time illustrator with a passion for helping others achieve their creative goals. She loves producing professional resources for creatives, and I can personally attest that her textures and procreate brushes are by far some of my absolute faves.

Nikki

(00:01:02)
Mostly self-taught, Lisa has created a thriving art business and is a rock star on sites like Design Cuts and Creative Market. She thrives on sharing knowledge she’s gained, both as a business owner and an artist, with others through online courses and tutorials. And we’re super excited to have her here with us today.

Laura

(00:01:21)
Lisa, welcome to the Startist Society.

Lisa

(00:01:23)
Hi! So happy to be here. Wow, what an intro. I feel, I feel honored. Thank you.

Laura

(00:01:31)
Well, we’re honored to have you here for sure.

Lisa

(00:01:34)
Ah, thank you.

Nikki

(00:01:35)
We like to start our interviews by asking you to share your Startist story. So can you talk a bit about how you got started, how your creative journey began and how you became the awesome creator, illustrator and teacher that you are these days?

Lisa

(00:01:51)
Um, well thank you. Um, it has been quite a weird journey in a way because, I started as a graphic designer really, you know, doing the usual, working from the bottom up, you know, junior designer in a publishing house and then from there eventually became art director in another publishing house.
And through all that experience, I just kept thinking like, cause I don’t know if you guys have had any experience working in a publishing house, but they’re really take it out of you. Um, it’s a lot of hours and a lot of hard work and I just kept thinking, you know, I’m putting in all this effort and time somebody else. You know, so imagine if I applied that same energy and efforts with my own business. So it took me quite a while. I’d say probably maybe eight years into my design career to really, you know, push myself and take the leap of becoming a freelance graphic designer. And, so I’m a bit of a scaredy cat. Well, I definitely was back then. So I did it kind of half half. So what I did was I worked half day for a woman who had her own graphic design business. And then the other half was kind of my own time using her equipment, using her setup, which was a really cool arrangement. And then she would just take a very small portion of what I made in my time just to cover the costs of me using her setup. So that was kind of like, just dabbling in owning your own business without, really, totally leaving a steady paycheck.

Nikki

(00:03:40)
That’s actually a great way to make that transition.

Lisa

(00:03:45)
Yeah. And I think people, I think maybe where they make the mistake, if I can call it that, is I think that they can’t choose that option. I think there are businesses out there that we’re willing to take you on for half day and would even be willing to, if you don’t have a whole setup, cause I know equipment can be really expensive and, back then it really was, I mean, buying an Apple Mac was just, it was undoable and things have become a lot cheaper, thank goodness. But yeah, I just, I just didn’t have the money to buy my own computer, so yeah, there are options out there. So I think people need to really kind of think out the box if they want to take that plunge and you really don’t have to do it like, like a cutoff, you know, you don’t have to leave a steady paycheck. There are options.

Nikki

(00:04:30)
Let me just ask you a little bit more about that arrangement. Did you propose that to her or was she looking for just a part-time person? And you…

Lisa

(00:04:38)
It was just kind of like in between? Um, so I knew her personally and so I just sort of, kind of started telling her, like, I really would like to start my own business, but I’m scared and all this kind of stuff. And, you know, just chatting to her, we eventually came up with this arrangement and I think that’s the other important key thing to remember is that, you know, chat to people, like, you don’t know what you’re gonna come across. You don’t know what they’re going to offer. They might be looking for somebody that is exactly what you want to do, you know, but, and you think is not possible. You know, you think the idea is so far-fetched like, it just won’t exist, but you never know. So, definitely put feelers art, even if you don’t know somebody personally, you can, you know, you can speak to somebody that knows of somebody kind of thing. So, um, yeah, that’s, that’s a really good kind of tip and it also, what it does is that it forces you to take yourself seriously, because when you start putting those feelers out, you’re kind of committing to something like you really are starting to believe that this is possible. Um, so yeah, that, that was a big, a big step for me. And so the good thing, the good and bad thing is that it got so busy, my half of the day, you know, as my freelance side sort of grew, I just couldn’t maintain working for her and working for myself. And I took me about six months of a very, very stressful life to eventually realize I can’t do both.
So I had to take the plunge and completely, you know, quit her, sort of, you know, business and really kind of go on my own, um, which is exactly what I did and got my own office. You know, that’s scary, signing that lease, you know, now you have to pay someone rent and yeah, so I did that and I would say that I did for about five years and then, again, the itchy feet sort of started happening and I realize, okay, I love graphic design, but I ultimately really want to be an artist. And I had no clue. I had no clue how I was going to do it because quite frankly, I couldn’t really draw all that well. Um…

Laura

(00:06:55)
I can’t believe that.

Lisa

(00:06:57)
Well, you know, the weirdest thing is, I mean, I, you know, I’m sure like most of you, you’ve been drawing like your whole life, but you’re not really that good. Well, I mean, if you haven’t had training, you’re like, you’re okay, um, so I would put myself in, I was okay. Um, and, my style was very kind of realistic. I was good at copying things, you know? So, um, yeah, so the whole idea of becoming an artist was so like fantastical and magical, but absolutely far-fetched, like I just didn’t think it was going to be possible. And, um, so for years I kind of dabbled with the idea in my mind and I didn’t know how I was going to do it. Um, so I finally, it was very weird and serendipitous, but this, you know, the universe is like that. So what I, uh, you know, I started getting, as I said, itchy feet and I started doing creative things on the side to fulfill that need. And, um, cause you know, after doing like catalogs and newsletters and it starts getting pretty boring, you know?

Nikki

(00:08:02)
Oh yeah.

Laura

(00:08:03)
Yeah.

Lisa

(00:08:04)
Even though I had a really, I had a steady income. I mean, I had so many great clients, all those kind ,of thing, which was, that was the other worst thing, um, was like, when you start telling people you want to pivot again, they just look at you, why? You’ve made this like successful graphic design business and why would you want to do that? Um, yeah, so that makes it even harder. But anyway. Um, yeah, so I basically decided to do stuff on the side and my sister and I started selling jewelry, making jewelry and selling it on the side and it really didn’t go well. It wasn’t successful at all.

Nikki

(00:08:43)
But it wasn’t fun?

Lisa

(00:08:46)
Yeah. So it was fun. But what it did do is it kind of opened the door for me to Etsy. So I mean, living in South Africa, we kind of, we’re not really exposed to those kinds of things that much. I mean, now it’s changed so much, but back then, um, you know, Etsy was this like, this amazing platform and, you know, anyway…

Nikki

(00:09:09)
So how long ago, are we talking? About when was this?

Lisa

(00:09:13)
I’d say eight years ago. So, yeah. So about eight, maybe eight, nine years ago, I’d say maybe nine years ago. So yeah, selling on there, realized that was a flop because a, we just weren’t getting any sales and be to ship it to overseas from South Africa is quite an issue. But what I did see were these people selling clip art and I thought, hang on a minute, how can that be? You know, these cute little bunnies or cute little things? And I thought, oh, that looks cute, let me try that. And that was literally my starting point of how I do what I to do today. And I remember putting my first product up on Etsy. I knew it was terrible. But, it was my first product and I just thought, just do it. It’s like, it’s like, when you just run, close your eyes and jump, it was like that. And I didn’t have a clue of what I was doing, but it didn’t matter because my, my livelihood and life and whatever didn’t depend on it, it was just me kind of figuring stuff out. And, um, so I dabbled in that, I’d say for about a year and then realized, then I came across Creative Market actually. And, and I thought, wow, because that’s a whole ‘nother ball game, as you guys know, like, oh, so there’s like the cutesy little clip arty stuff, you know? And then there’s the serious stuff, like Creative Market, right? And, and then I saw the stuff that they were doing there and I just went, wow, I can do this. I can do this. You know? Um, and I would say, about eight months of dedicated and I’m talking dedicated, like every single waking moment I had to spare. So during the day I had my business, my graphic design business. And at night and on weekends for about eight or nine months, I just grafted on my products for Creative Market. That’s all I did. I didn’t see friends. I didn’t see my boyfriend. Um, I literally just, that’s all I did. And I learned so much in that time, in that short time. In that short time, I went through the biggest roller coaster of emotions that I could possibly even tell you about. Um, it was a combination of exhilaration, fear, um, not thinking that you’re good enough, to damn, I can do this to… I mean, it was like, I mean, I was a mess.

Nikki

(00:11:51)
What were your first products on Creative Market?

Lisa

(00:11:56)
Um, I’m trying to think. It would have been terrible, but it would have been something along the lines of probably flowers and then a mix of like, cause you know, I was still taking advantage of my graphic design skills, so I did a lot of like logo templates back then. And because I didn’t have a clue about my style, um, you know, I was still kind of…

Nikki

(00:12:18)
Trying everything.

Lisa

(00:12:19)
Yes, exactly. I was kind of dabbling in this and oh, that’s trendy. Let’s try that. And it was a mess. It doesn’t matter because that’s how I learned, you know?

Nikki

(00:12:30)
Absolutely.

Lisa

(00:12:31)
And that’s also how I figured out what I love and what I didn’t love.

Laura

(00:12:34)
And were your tools of the trade, like Photoshop and Illustrator at the time or, or what, the products you were offering.

Lisa

(00:12:41)
Yeah, so the key focus was Illustrator and Photoshop. And then, you know, I’d always try and supply it in formats that people that didn’t have those apps could use it as well. Um, you know, I was always aware of trying to broaden my customer base because you don’t want, it depends on what the product is, you know, if you, if you can broaden your customer base as much as possible, that’s the key. Um, yeah. So, and then I’d say about eight, nine months of that. Yeah. And, and working really hard drawing and kind of figuring out my style one day, my style literally clicked. It was like, I mean, it was a moment. It was when I finally reached, like when I did something, I just went, oh my God, like this is it.

Nikki

(00:13:29)
And the clouds parted and the sun shone down…

Lisa

(00:13:31)
Literally, literally! I still, I, you know, I still have that illustrated documents and it’s called OMG because literally it was the fricking moment.

Nikki

(00:13:46)
And what was it?

Lisa

(00:13:49)
I drew a deer. Um, but it was more the style, like the technique that I used and the workflow, because that’s what I was trying to perfect. I was trying to like speed up my workflow to get things, produce them as fast as possible, but still maintain a particular look that was unique to me. And when I hit it, it was like, oh my word. Yeah. So it is quite something. Yeah. And then I just started producing products in that style. And that is when my journey just literally like the, you know, so yeah, you have this curve, it’s kind of like growing slightly a little bit, but the minute I started doing that, it just kind of skyrocketed. And then by the end of that year, I told all my phone, you know, send letters, phone people, all my clients. And I literally fired them. You know, I said, look, I’m not doing graphic design anymore. Um, I want to be doing this illustration thing full time. And it was damn scary because I still didn’t know if it was going to be enough to sustain me. Um, but I took a leap of faith a year, you know, once again. And I think the more you do that leap of faith, the more you kind of like exercise that muscle, you know, the easier it becomes.

Nikki

(00:15:08)
Start trusting that…

Lisa

(00:15:09)
Yes, exactly. Yeah, so…and then that’s, that’s yeah, that’s basically where I’m at now. And since then, that’s all I do. That’s what I do for a living. I basically create products. I mean, obviously since then I’ve evolved, but essentially that’s what I do. I create products. I sell them on marketplaces. I now teach. Um, and I now help others to do the same thing, you know, is what I do. And, um, yeah, I, that was a long waffle of my journey, but…

Nikki

(00:15:38)
No, that was, that’s exactly what we wanted to hear and it was brilliant

Laura

(00:15:42)
It’s an amazing journey. And I can recall when I first saw your graphic illustration work, you had all these amazing bundles of illustrations and like prolific bundles too, with like hundreds of things in them. You’re such a prolific creator, so you definitely have your workflow down. That’s for sure. Um, like the magical scene creator, the personalized portrait creator, um, these really awesome tools where people can create some really neat things.

Lisa

(00:16:09)
Yeah, those are massive, yeah.

Laura

(00:16:11)
You’ve provided… at least what I saw was you provided a lot of your illustrations to utilize on stationary or products, but in recent years there’s sort of been a shift in your work to creating more tools like digital brushes to help artists create their own original designs. So what brought along that shift?

Lisa

(00:16:32)
It’s, it’s actually a combination of a couple of things. Um, I would say the main driving force is, I have this… I always had the sense that I want to help other people, um, to not have to struggle like I did, if that makes sense. So, yeah, I just, it, you know, even before I started doing this, I just kept telling Cliff, who’s my other half, I kept saying to him, you know, I wanna, I just want to help people. I don’t know what that means. I don’t know in what form or shape or, I mean, there was a time where I even thought I should be a psychologist or, you know, work at a helpline, or I just had this like, feeling that I, you know, that I wanted to help. And I guess it’s, it’s what fulfills me. Um, you know, so combining that sense with the fact that I know what it’s like to struggle in the beginning phases, um, you know, kind of produce these products and, and the other, the sad side is the reason why I started doing that more is my other work just became ripped off and stolen just so many times. I’m not saying that the, the work I’m doing now isn’t, um, but it’s just less of, and I just got tired of chasing these people and tired of sending copyright infringements and, you know, so it’s still happening. Um, I’m more, I’m more at peace with that. Um, I still, you know, I still get my assistant to help me as much as I can because it’s such a waste of time, but, um, but yeah, it’s basically did also steer me away from producing original art to sell versus creating tools for others to sell, if that makes sense. Um, yeah, so that’s, I mean, that’s the yucky side about selling online, which I’ll get into, but, um, but yeah, that that’s, that was the other reason why it also pushed me to do that. But, but besides that, I love creating stuff that’s, like I love problem solving, so I always try and find ways to solve somebody else’s problem. Like, I think if you’re not an illustrator, but you really want to be one, like, what would you need? You know? And so that, yeah, so that drives me too, to create the products that I create.

Nikki

(00:18:52)
Well, and you’re doing a lot of tutorials, I know, that go along with how to use your products. How do you use your, you know, um, have you done a course or are you thinking about doing a course on how to like, for example, how to use Creative Market?

Lisa

(00:19:12)
Well, I’ve actually been thinking for a long time, to create quite a comprehensive course on how to create a product from beginning to end. Um, you know, the thought process. You know, what you should put inside, how you come up with it, all this kind of thing, you know, to sell on places like Creative Market. Um, and the thing was…

Nikki

(00:19:36)
I think that would be a brilliant class.

Laura

(00:19:38)
Yeah, I think Nikki and I would both take that class for sure.

Nikki

(00:19:41)
Yeah, we’d sign up for that because really I have been looking, I’ve looked into, um, packaging up a lot of my drawings to sell on Creative Market, but, you know, I’ve got the, creating the art side down, but, um, I don’t know how much to include in it, what’s too little, what’s too much. How to price it.

Laura

(00:20:06)
The formats and the marketing and like all the different pieces.

Nikki

(00:20:10)
Yeah, how do you even start that process?

Lisa

(00:20:13)
It’s it is really overwhelming and confusing, but I just always say I’m looking at it. It is definitely something I’d like to do in the future. It’s just that I get overwhelmed because I know it’s quite a lot of work to put together. Um, but in short, if you just try, this is what I did from, from the get go, and it’s worked for me, try and put yourself in your target audience’s shoes. Okay. So that’s the first thing you got to figure out like who you actually selling it to, what is, you know, what’s your product going to be useful. So is really, do need to think that through quite carefully. Um, so for example, if your specializing in. I don’t know, abstract backgrounds, like who do you think would buy that and use that? And then you, you think of all the things that that customer would need in order for them to achieve a particular project. And then the, so those would be the things that you’d be including and think of the formats they would need. And then over above that to elevate your product, you always think of what else can I add to it that’s going to add value to them that they didn’t expect that they’re going to walk away going, wow, that’s, that’s cool. Um, I’m glad I bought this product, you know, it’s not just like he has five backgrounds, you know, go wild. Like, how do the, how can you use the backgrounds? Maybe you’re giving them a matching color palette. Um, you know, always think of problem solving things for them. Think of ways you can save them time, think of ways that you can, you know, make their jobs easier. So it’s always try and put yourself in the shoes of your customer and what would be really cool if you were the customer, what would you really like, you know? Um, so that’s always number one. In terms of the formats, I wouldn’t fret too much about that. Um, but it’s definitely think it, cause if, once, you know, your customer, the formats kind of like answer themselves kind of thing, right? Yeah. So if you, if you specifically looking for, to, to service, like an Illustrator vector audience, then you know, there’s your format, you don’t have to worry about the rest. Yeah. So that kind of answers a questions.

Laura

(00:22:27)
So I think a lot of our listeners might be interested in doing something like this, where they package up some of their illustrations or surface pattern designs or, um, digital art and make it available. There is this fear around that whole process then, and, um, how to market it and how to get it out there. So I like that idea of having your ideal client in mind and really honing in on what are the extra little value adds that you can put in there that are going to make a difference and attract the right customer to it. Um, but I know you’ve worked on Creative Market. You talked about starting there. I know you also have your products on Design Cuts, which I adore. I adore Design Cuts.

Lisa

(00:23:06)
Me too.

Laura

(00:23:06)
It’s a fabulous platform and I love the tutorials. You even offer tutorials on how to use the products through Crowdcast, I think, or they have, they offer some, um, really amazing free tutorials.

Lisa

(00:23:19)
Yeah, they do.

Laura

(00:23:20)
So, can you tell us a little bit more about how you got into that and, and, you know, worked with Design Cuts?

Lisa

(00:23:26)
So Design Cuts, I love them. They’re they truly are, if, if you are looking for a place to sell your work, they would be somebody I’d recommend over Creative Market, because they really, really do give a damn about the artists and the customer. Whereas some other platforms, they kind of very driven money wise. Um, and they often drop, I think they often drop the ball when it comes to looking after their shop owners, but Design Cuts, honestly, and I’m not just saying that because Tom who’s, the CEO is my friend. Honestly, he became a friend because, because of the places that were amazing, right. Um, yeah. So the great thing about that is that when they do um, see value in a product and they think that audience, so this is why, why they’re amazing, right? So they’re thinking of both the audience and the artists. When they see a product that they know that the audience is going to love to see and use, and like a tutorial on how to use it, they contact the artist and say, would you be willing to do what they call a hangout? So then you would come on and then, you know, people through your product, you do a tutorial on it. So, you know, on the one hand that’s going to up your sales, cause you kind of showing people like, you know how to use it. But on the other hand, you’re also adding value and you’re showing customers how they can apply it and giving them tips and all that kind of stuff. And it’s all for free. So it’s like kind of a, win-win both sides.

Laura

(00:24:55)
And I can admit that I don’t think I’ve ever, I don’t think I’ve ever done one of those and not gone and bought the product after. They demo it and you’re like, oh my God, you can do this and this and this and it’s so cool. I need to have that thing.

Lisa

(00:25:09)
Yes, exactly.

Laura

(00:25:10)
It works really well.

Lisa

(00:25:11)
Yeah. It’s like a no brainer for everyone to be winning, you know? Um, yeah. So it’s, it’s a really cool thing that they do. And, um, yeah, as I said, they really look after both customer and artists, so yeah, if you can get your work on them, cause they’re, they’re also quite curated, they don’t just accept anyone. So if you can really work towards getting your work on there, yeah, I highly recommend that. Um, so doing things like that has, that’s also pushed me into the teaching because I mean, I was, I was camera shy. I mean, you have no idea. I mean the first time, the first time I ever recorded anything. I think I had to do the same thing about, I don’t know, a hundred times, because I just sounded like a moron. I still think I sound like a moron, but I just roll with it, you know?

Nikki

(00:25:58)
But a more confident moron.

Lisa

(00:26:00)
Exactly. Absolutely. Yeah. So, um, and I still, like, when I hear, when I listen back, I go, oh my goodness, you sound like an idiot. Why do you have to say that so many times and can’t you stop saying actually, cause I keep saying actually actually a hundred times, and anyway…

Nikki

(00:26:20)
We know that story because we listen to the podcast and we’re like, okay, can we stop saying, right?

Laura

(00:26:28)
Or absolutely.

Lisa

(00:26:31)
Absolutely! Oh my goodness. It is so annoying, but it just shows you, it just shows you how you just naturally say these things and you only realize, or how you sound. Yeah. Anyway, so that kind of pushed me, or at least gave me the confidence, those sessions to, you know, start teaching, and you know, the big thing is, is another, another thing I’ve learned along the way is, I mean, if you told me like 10 years ago, you’d be A, on a podcast, B teaching and you’re like on camera live, all that stuff, I’d say there’s no way in hell. Um, but it’s just taking that step and accepting things or pushing yourself and saying yes to things that you know are scary. Like they freak you out. Um, you just don’t know the doors that are gonna open. Right. I mean, you just really don’t and I mean, I remember when Tom, uh, from, uh, Honest Designers Podcast, when he, I did a call with him, um, and he said, you know, I think I should, we should start a mastermind group. And, um, I was thinking of doing it with Dustin Lee and Ian Barnard, like, like, and those two guys were like so intimidating to me. Like I thought, wow, there’s a like gurus of the industry kind of thing. And I just said, I didn’t even think, I just said, yeah, this sounds cool. Like afterwards I was, oh my word, what have you just said yes too? Yeah. And I mean, that is literally how the show started. We started meeting once a week, just chatting. And then Tom was like, Hey, you know, I think other people could benefit from our ramblings, you know, and, and we decided just to record them. And yeah. So that’s how that show started. And, and if I didn’t say yes, I wouldn’t have met Tom, I wouldn’t have known Dustin or Ian or done the show or you know, I wouldn’t have met you guys and just a snowball of things.

Nikki

(00:28:31)
Yeah, seriously. So, yeah, that’s how Laura and I got started. We were just having brunch together and talking about these kinds of things and said, we should do this on a podcast. And we’d never done it before. So we took that leap and now we’re talking to you. So, yeah.

Laura

(00:28:49)
Yeah, it’s those small steps, it’s those small steps.

Lisa

(00:28:52)
It is. It is the small steps. And I bet you from you doing this, not only have you probably met people you never would have, but also you get more confident in doing things that are out of your comfort zone. It’s like what I was saying early on, it’s like you exercise that muscle of putting yourself. It’s, it’s widening your circle. Like each, each time you widen your circle, it’s scary at first. And you just want to like, you know, crawl into a hole and, and hope it all goes away. But if you’ve powered through and you get past your fear and you, and you live in that circle for a little while, eventually you get used to it and then you push yourself to expand your circle again. And so you just keep doing that until eventually you reach the ultimate one that ultimate, but you reach those goals that you were after. And then once you reach those, you realize, hang on a minute, I can go even further. You know? So

Laura

(00:29:46)
It’s growing that confidence muscle.

Lisa

(00:29:48)
Yes, exactly.

Nikki

(00:29:50)
Yeah, definitely.

Laura

(00:29:51)
So you mentioned teaching. I know you’ve, you’ve taught with Design Cuts and you also have some classes on Skillshare, right?

Lisa

(00:29:58)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Laura

(00:30:00)
Now, do you have classes on your own platform or your own website as well?

Lisa

(00:30:03)
Yes, I’m actually really bad, cause it’s like admin stuff that I always avoid. Um, I do have a Teachable platform that I am trying to build. So it’s basically the classes that I have on Skillshare that I’m trying to also include on my Teachable platform because I know not everybody has Skillshare and you know, they want to, um, also access my classes that way. So that is definitely in the works. Um, and yeah, obviously from an ongoing point of view, I’d I would like to expand on my classes cause I get, uh, you know, I get requests quite a lot for certain things. Um, it helps me see what people are needing or it also helps me with creating products because if, you know, if I get a lot of requests, like I dunno how to do this, or I don’t know how to do that, can you teach me? It, it often sparks ideas for me to like, hang on a minute. I can actually make a product out of that and you know, do whatever. So, um, yeah, it’s, it’s kind of. What’s the word, like symbiotic.

Laura

(00:31:05)
Well, well, speaking of, I think you’re, you’re working on a product right now, along those same lines, aren’t you?

Lisa

(00:31:11)
Yes. Yes. So it’s, um, I’m actually really excited about it because I know it’s going to help beginner beginner drawers, like people who want to illustrate. Um, I do have character drawing tool kits at the moment that have, you know, kind of frames that, that help you as a starting point. But I have heard feedback from those that are super new, like they still don’t know, like they put the frame down and then they go, okay, so now what, you know, so this, um, this kit is going to be… it’s a play on that, but it’s more, um, how do I say more… it’s even more user-friendly. That kind of implies that my other ones aren’t, but what I mean is it’s even, it’s even more kind of simplified and helpful. Like people don’t have to, um, you know, think too much. So it’s, it’s a great springboard for you to literally end up with something that you can sell. Um, cause that’s my, my whole idea for this. I want to supply them something that they can build up and then draw on top of it and then they can sell, they can actually sell that illustration or use it in a project or whatever. Um, cause I know that that holds people back, you know, they think their work isn’t good enough. So I’m hoping that this is going to give them the confidence to, to actually do that.

Laura

(00:32:30)
You do have a way of really breaking things down into sort of the basic elements and showing people exactly how to get certain effects, which I love. Cause I’ve taken several of your classes and tutorials before. Um, especially with texture and with Procreate. So this new tool that you’re creating, is it for Procreate?

Lisa

(00:32:48)
Yes, it’ll be actually – there’s my word again, actually, um, it’ll be, it’ll be for Procreate and Illustrator and Photoshop and Affinity because I want to obviously provide it to as many people as possible and not everybody uses Procreate. Um, but that is my preference. My preference is Procreate, so yes, it’s going to be for Procreate. It’ll include a document, like a layered document where people could literally turn things on and off to pull up their characters instead of them kind of plotting their own things, kind of, you know, in a way. Um, and then I’m going to supply, there’ll be stamps that they can apply to, to the original kind of frame that they can hold up on. Um, so they really don’t, they won’t be overwhelmed with proportion and where to put the head and how big should I use the head and all those kind of things it’s going to be literally like, choose a rhino and then choose a rhino’s, well, choose a body to go with a rhino kind of thing. Yeah.

Laura

(00:33:51)
So it’s really great for whimsical animals.

Lisa

(00:33:54)
Yes.

Laura

(00:33:55)
I love that. Um, so you’ll, you’ll be offering that and I assume there might be some tutorials to go with it.

Lisa

(00:34:01)
Definitely. Um, I’m hoping to do at least one, as you know, there’s a starter and then there’s going to be a, um, I don’t know if Design Cuts is going to be happy with me sharing this, but I don’t think they’ll mind. They’re doing a massive birthday event, um, soon. And, um, part of that is, you know, a whole bunch of us doing tutorials again, like they do every year. And one of my, my tutorial will be on this as well. So that’ll be another, you know, an additional tutorial and then obviously ongoing, I’m going to try and do as many as possible, um, you know, to help people and also to help them like, cause I use my watercolor brushes a lot in Procreate and this, this kit is like perfect for that because it’s like a great way to paint a watercolor animal, but without the mess and without the whatever, and you, you end up with this like piece of artwork that you can literally, as I said before, sell or be proud of. And yeah, so that’s my aim to, to help people walk away thinking, wow, look at what I did, you know?

Laura

(00:35:08)
Well, and I love that. I like Procreate as well. And I have all of your sets. Let’s just say that now. You’ve got the watercolor, the, the realistic watercolor. You’ve got your, um, your plush, which is like a pencil one. Um, you have a gouache mistake set and what amazes me with procreate and how it sort of changed the game is that I have a whole house full of art supplies, which I’m not using anymore because you can make digital ones, right? Like it’s so less messy. And then, you got to love the double-tap, right? Like that you can go backwards and say, this isn’t the way I wanted it.

Lisa

(00:35:47)
Yes, I mean, for me, that is, that honestly is a game changer. And for you, I mean, I, I love watercolor like traditional watercolor, but what used to put me off was, man, you put that black brushstroke down and you’ve a mistake and that’s the end of your piece. So, you know, you think, oh, I have to spend three hours in Photoshop fixing that. And you know, it was just so painful. Now it’s as you say, like, if you don’t like the color, you just change it in procreate or, you know, as you said, the double tap just delete, go backwards. It’s now. It’s amazing.

Laura

(00:36:21)
Now here’s the question, Lisa. Have you ever double tapped on your actual watercolor?

Lisa

(00:36:28)
Yes. Do you know how many times I will draw with a pencil? Okay. On paper, and I will do like, literally I will do like mannerisms on my Procreate screen. And I’m like, what are you doing? I mean, I, you see for, for years, I mean, this is how bad it is. So when I was a graphic designer, like full on graphic design, I would, everything would be like, command Z. You know? And I would. Literally go and use the microwave. And if I put it in the wrong seconds, I would want to go command Z. That’s ridiculous. Or, you know, the three fingers scrub to clear the screen. No, you need an eraser. It’s ridiculous. Yeah, no, it’s really bad. I mean, if people saw met, yeah, they’d laugh at me, but what can we do?

Laura

(00:37:25)
We all do it. We all do it.

Lisa

(00:37:27)
So, yeah. it’s crazy.

Laura

(00:37:30)
Okay. So we have talked a little bit about getting started in Creative Market, Design Cuts, how fabulous it is. And so people are interested in packaging artwork, putting it out there. You mentioned, you know, there’s some, there’s some pros and cons to that, right? Can you take us through what you think some of the biggest pros are for using these particular types of marketplaces and what you think some of the challenges are.

Nikki

(00:37:55)
Also versus selling things directly on your own website?

Lisa

(00:37:58)
Um, okay. So, and then is this versus basically licensing your work to your clients? Because I’d like, I mean, I’d like to speak about that a bit.

Nikki

(00:38:10)
All of it, yeah.

Lisa

(00:38:11)
I, I basically don’t. I mean, all my income. Yeah. So my whole income comes from, most of my income – 90% of my income comes from selling digital products. I have licensed my work to, you know, on fabric, um, you know, to clients that sell products or whatever. And that just does not compare to what I earn on my digital products. Um, so the pro would be the scope of how much, you know, the, the sky’s the limit of what you can really earn. And I’m not kidding. It’s like, if you, if you put in the effort and you produce a product that is, you know, top-notch, and it just takes off, your earning potential is, it’s enormous. And I don’t think you can find, I don’t think it’s going to be easy for you to find an equivalent, to earn the same amount of money that you can potentially earn, you know, selling digital products versus selling your artwork to clients. I don’t, I don’t think it’s matched. Um, obviously that does mean that you would need to be doing well on the markets. It means that you do need, you know, you need to put time and effort and, and marketing and all that kind of stuff. So with anything like if you, you can be a really successful license artists, but then would require you to put in all the craft and finding the clients and getting like, you know, licensing your work over and over, the same work to, uh, hundreds of different clients. And the thing was selling digital products is that you are literally doing that. You’re taking one or several pieces of artwork. You’ve bundled them together into a product and that’s it. You, you just leave it there and it’s sold over and over and over and over. Obviously the price point is a lot lower than you would for example, licensed something for, I don’t know, $850. You’re selling the same artwork potentially for like $12. Um, but the model is, is that you are selling that. Thousands of times. Um, so that’s a big pro the other pros that you can literally decide what you want to create. No, one’s telling you what to create, you are your own bias. Um, you know, if you are a sort of, I don’t know if you’re a little bit of a mad scientist kind of illustrator, creator, like me, it’s like a dream come true because you can literally tinker around for days and experiment and come up with like interesting stuff and you’re making a living doing that, you know? So that is amazing. That’s like an every day is just, it’s so special that you can do this for a living. Um, so the challenges would be, obviously people need to find you, they need to know who you are, and obviously you need to come up with a product that’s going to be successful. Um, and the challenge is, you know, as with, I know surface design, there’s just so many designers out there. There are also so many creative, you know, markets, people selling products.

Laura

(00:41:12)
So how do you get, found, in your experience, what do you think are the most important things to get found on a marketplace that seems full and saturated?

Lisa

(00:41:20)
Yes. Okay. So there’s two, I think, that that are essential to being found. One is having your own unique style and two producing products that are, they can be on trend, they can definitely be on trend, but they need to be unique. If you can, if you can produce the first of the trend, obviously that’s a bonus. Um, but if you are following a trend, definitely put your own spin on it. And I just don’t think it’s sustainable if you’re just copying other people’s work. You need to, you know, you need to kind of come up with your own, um, sort of spin on it. And as I said, if you, you need to like put it in your own style. And so if you can do those two things very well and you can literally stand out, then people will come to you for that specific style. And that’s how you get found. Um, but if you just kind of looking like everybody else in a sea of stuff, you’re going to be lost.

Laura

(00:42:22)
How long after you started, did you, were you able to basically make a full-time income from, from just the marketplaces?

Lisa

(00:42:30)
So, yeah, if I, if I, if I look back, um, I started selling on Creative Market in May, I think May 2014. Um, by the end of December that year I quit my graphic design job because I was literally earning the same amount that I was earning, you know, designing. Um, and yeah, so then that year, well, January, I literally sent out a letter to everyone saying, thanks very much, but see you in another lifetime, I’m heading this way, you know? Um, so that’s, -yeah. To give you an idea, but, but I’ve got to, I’ve got to put a little asterisk on that times have changed. Um, I got into the marketplace when it was still kind of new and it wasn’t as saturated. So I don’t think you can put the same timescale on like, you know, as, as mine. But I can tell you what I do recommend from the get, go. If you can, from the get, go, definitely start selling your work on your own website. Because you can control your website. You can control what goes on on your website. Um, you can start building your own mailing lists. Uh, all those kinds of things are super important because what happens is, I mean, I’ve seen Creative Market change so many times over the years, like their policies have changed, they’ve taken more commission. They literally took 10% just like that extra, you know, without even which was a huge shock, you know, for people and. Yeah. And they changed the policies all the time. Now they’ve added some something else that none of us it liking and it’s just, it just goes on and on and on. So that you can control, but you can control your website. And it does take some time, to give you some idea of the timeline from when I started selling on my website, um, to now let me just think, gosh, maybe five years. So it’s taken me about maybe four or five years to reach the same amount of money that I’m earning on my website that I do on Creative Market. Just to give you an idea. So it does take some time to build up your website, but once you reach it, because the aim is to not rely on your other income from those, those markets. Cause if they disappear, then that’s it, there’s your business.

Laura

(00:44:55)
It’s diversifying your income, but you’re still having the same products, you’re just putting those products on different platforms and building up your own website, wherever you can, right?

Lisa

(00:45:05)
Yes. And I don’t recommend putting you products everywhere. I know some artists do that. I, I don’t think it’s a good idea. And the reason why I don’t think that’s a good idea is that you, you can’t keep tabs on, on 20 shops, but you can, you can do three or four shops really well. You know, um, you don’t want to compromise on your customer service. So if, if you have like, I dunno, 50 emails every day from 20 different platforms asking you, can you answer this? And I need a refund there and I don’t know how to use this. And so you can’t keep, you can’t keep that up. Um, so rather stick to the platforms that, you know, three or four and do them well. And also another word of warning is check the license that you are agreeing to. You know, so if you’re signing up to Creative Market, for example, their license will be slightly different than Design Cuts and Design Cuts’ license will be different to, I don’t know, Hungry JPEG and so on and so on. So definitely read your seller agreement and the seller license, because you could be saying yes to things that you don’t want other people to do, you know, with your artwork.

Laura

(00:46:15)
Right. And you had mentioned earlier there is that challenge with people using things in a way that they shouldn’t.

Lisa

(00:46:21)
Yes.

Nikki

(00:46:22)
Lisa, you have a page on your website that explains how people can and can’t use your illustrations. And, it’s a really great page. It’s, uh, I think it’s lisaglanz.com/licence-overview. And, you talk about, and you give great examples about how this is okay to use it this way and not this way. Can you tell us a little more about, about that and how people can and can’t use your work.

Lisa

(00:46:51)
Yeah, so that page that you’ve mentioned was born out of getting I must have got about five emails a day asking how they are allowed to use my graphics based on the Creative Market, because at that stage I was only selling there and they used to get really confused with the license, the license on Creative Market, I still think is a bit too confusing for people. So I had to create a very simple graphic to explain like what you can and can’t do as an overview. Obviously they more intricate details that, you know, if you want to dive deeper into the license, but that’s the general gist, um, just to help people understand it easier. And since then, obviously I had, I don’t get the same amount of emails asking to explain, cause that does the job, but. Essentially what you can do is you can use my work and anybody’s work from Creative Market or Design Cuts to create commercial end products. And an end product would be either something physical, like a mug or a t-shirts, or you can create digital products, but they have even more of a requirement for you to follow. So the general ideas that you need to make sure that the graphic isn’t the original graphic, like say for example, you bought a fox and you’ve licensed a fox. You can’t use that on its own, but what you can do is you can apply text and a background, and maybe some flowers, the idea is that the original graphic that you bought is kind of, um, assisting you in creating your own unique design. So you can’t use it as is standalone because then you basically taking somebody else’s work plunking on a t-shirt and selling that. So most licenses on all these platforms do not allow that, but I think most people don’t know that and they do go ahead and just plunk it on a t-shirt and sell it. Um, you know, so you want to, it’s basically using the original graphic that you purchased as the main integrity of the product. And what that means is you’re using the people are buying their t-shirt because of the fox and the license doesn’t really allow that because you’re not really. You haven’t licensed the product to do that. But what you have done is you’ve it know by buying the license, it does allow you to use the fox as part of a wider design, as I said, adding text or, you know, a background or whatever, then you can use it on a t-shirt and sell it. And then it becomes the overall design becomes a reason people are buying the t-shirt and not just the fox, if that makes sense.

Laura

(00:49:34)
So you talk a bit, you talked a bit earlier about the challenge of sometimes having people steal your artwork and then you have, you have to send like a cease and desist letter. Is this where people are, are taking your artwork or purchasing it and then reselling it as theirs or?

Lisa

(00:49:49)
Yeah. Yes. So the yucky side about selling your work online is that it opens yourself up to, unfortunately, piracy. Um, there are gosh, probably hundreds of pirate websites out there, and it’s not only for artwork it’s for, we all know this, it’s for music, it’s for movies, it’s for books, it’s for whatever. Um, so there are pirate sites that focus purely on digital products and they will take your product, whether they bought it legitimately or fraudulently cause that’s also another thing. People use stolen credit cards to buy products, and then what they do is they either uploaded onto the pirate website to give away, or they sell it themselves. It’s very disheartening, but if you start selling and you typed in your product name with a word free afterwards, you will see all these websites with your product on, for free. Yeah so it is quite, uh, and you know, you hope that most people won’t support pirate websites. Um, you know, you hope that most people will do the right thing. And, and I often get customers actually pointing it out saying, hey, do you know that this your product is for free on this place? You know, and they didn’t buy it or they didn’t download it, but they wanted to tell me kind of thing. So, yeah, it’s, it is, it is disheartening. It’s, it’s takes a lot of time and energy and effort to get that removed. Um, and it’s, and it’s annoying because you could be spending that time making other stuff, you know, but instead there you are spending hours sending Google a take down, sending this website a take down. Um, yeah, so.

Laura

(00:51:34)
It feels like time and energy wasted when you’re focusing on that. I think, I think it is important for, for those to be taken down where possible, but not to let all your creative energy gets sucked into worrying about that because you just have to keep creating new things, you know, and getting your work out in the world.

Lisa

(00:51:53)
Absolutely. Yeah. And I, you know, I hate saying, I hate mentioning that because I don’t want to put people off, but it is a, it is unfortunately a reality. And I must say I ebb and flow, like I go through phases where it really irks me and then other days I just go, oh, whatever. Um, but like, I always think of imagine being Bruce Springsteen, like, he must know that his work it is literally stolen, like, so much, you know, like how does he deal with it? Or, you know, like, I mean, all these people that, that put work out there that that’s just stolen it’s yeah. Yeah.

Laura

(00:52:29)
But there’s a big upside to it too. Right? There are going to be bad apples, but there’s going to be people that are loyal to your work and that are always going to purchase the products that you put out there. And so if you can’t serve those people because you’re too scared of your work getting stolen.

Lisa

(00:52:47)
No, no, that’s insane. And it’s, and that would be so sad because it means that you kind of stopping this whole natural, I think it’s like a, like, we’re all on this train of creativity and like, you know, creation and magic. And if you stop that, then it’s just sad. Like we can’t get anywhere and you also don’t know what doors open and yeah, things change, you know? So yeah, you can’t be scared. Can’t be scared of putting yourself out there.

Laura

(00:53:14)
You gotta put that magic out there.

Lisa

(00:53:16)
Exactly. 100%.

Laura

(00:53:20)
Uh, I’d like to talk a little bit about community. Um, so you were talking about building up your own website and your email list, and I know you, um, to do that, you offer some freebies for people. Um, and do you recommend, um, for somebody who wants to be on something like Creative Market or Design Cuts, um, and they’re trying to, to build up a following, what would you recommend people to offer, you know, for, to entice people, to sign up for their email list? Do you have any recommendations for somebody who’s trying to attract that type of audience?

Lisa

(00:53:54)
Yeah. So you definitely want to, um, we’re going back to our original thing of knowing your end customer. So you definitely want to produce something that the person you are targeting would want. Don’t put up junk. Does that make sense? So don’t put up your crappiest product and make that for free that’s because if you think about it, you, this is kind of like a sneak preview to your work. And do you really want to be giving away something that’s like mediocre, um, to your customers? You don’t, you want to be giving away something that’s premium, but, um, you know, that is, that is going to attract the kind of customer that you want to eventually part, you know, you want them to part money with, and actually buy a product of yours. So yeah, go along the veins of what is the kind of product that you ultimately want to be producing and then make a version of that to give away for free. And you can do it in various ways. You can either do something like I do. I do small versions of my products and I build on, on it. So I add to it regularly, or you can do one really killer giveaway, you know, which a lot of people do, they do it. They decide to rather do it that way. That also works. But you, you want it to be something that is going to appeal to your ideal customer, and then you also need to not be precious about it. So you got to know that people are going to sign up just to get the freebie and then they’re going to unsubscribe straight away. So you need to almost make it and let it go and hope that, you know, through, through giving it away for free, that you are attracting the right kind of person.

Laura

(00:55:36)
Well, you’ve also built a strong community on Instagram, and I know that, um, you have, I believe you have a weekly challenge. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Lisa

(00:55:48)
Yeah, so it actually was thanks to a customer of mine that suggested it. She was one of those people that said, you know, I love your kids, but I feel stuck often. I don’t know how to use them sometimes. Um, can’t you like make a weekly challenge where, you know, you prompt us to use shapes, etcetera. So I thought, man, that’s a good idea. Um, so that’s what I do once a week, I use a shape or several shapes from my drawing toolkits, um, to come up with my own character. And then the idea is that you can either copy mine to learn, which I don’t mind at all. That’s absolutely cool as long as it’s just for learning, you can copy mine or you can create your own, um, character or object, whatever, using the same, the idea is to use the same shapes that I used, but you know, in your, in your own character. So that’s been really successful. And what I love to do is also showcase my customers work, when they tag me so that if they’re using know my watercolor brushes, or if they’re using the character toolkit brushes, and they tag me, I love sharing that. So I always include that in my stories where I can. Um, and that’s also, I find that so inspiring. I cannot believe the talent out there. It’s it’s insane. I mean, I can’t believe how talented my customers are it really, really is amazing. Yeah. So that’s, to me, so inspiring because then I can see, you know, how people are using my products and I’ve had so many people say how they look forward to that because they like to see, you know how other people are getting better, you know? Cause I I’ll share, I’ll share this, you know, the people that tag me often and they can literally see improvement. Um, so that’s really exciting.

Laura

(00:57:33)
And I, I enjoy looking at your stories as well, to see how people are using your products and all the different types of styles too, that people will use your product for. And it makes you think of, oh, I didn’t think about how I could use it in this way. So that’s a great way to build your audience and it’s sort of a circle because it’s feeding you, but it’s also feeding them and they’re excited to see their own work featured. So I think that’s a great way to, um, to build an audience.

Lisa

(00:58:00)
Yeah. And, and what I also love doing is it’s not only about the perfect posts, like people that are wow. They’re pro you know, sometimes I like showing people that are just starting out. I mean, cause that’s exciting, you know, when you’re just starting out and you’re still figuring it out. I think it’s so cool to…you know, we’re all in different stages of our journey and we need to appreciate every single step. And I just wish, I mean, I know I’m guilty of it myself on Instagram because I like pretty things, but I would just wish that people would show their imperfections more regularly. Um, cause it’ll just give permission to everybody to, Hey, it’s okay if you made, if you made a crappy piece of illustration today, that’s fine. Um, you know, it’s not a, it’s not a big deal. Tomorrow’s another day.

Nikki

(00:58:50)
So Lisa, we like to sort of tie things up and what I’d really like to know from you is what advice do you wish you had gotten when you got started that you can share with our listeners?

Lisa

(00:59:05)
Um, I would say the most important thing would be to draw every day. If somebody told me that, that I really do need to draw every day, um, to, you know, catapult or whatever, fast-track or whatever the word you want to use your skills. Um, I wish I wish somebody really like drilled that into my brain because I think that at the beginning stages of my illustration career, I just didn’t draw often enough and it was slow going in terms of my skill developments. Um, and the minute I decided to dedicate a slot every day to my drawing, man, it just took off. So I highly, highly recommend that. Definitely do it. And, and, and don’t be scared to like some people like, oh, I hate drawing people. I suck at it. Well, I used to really suck at drawing animals. Like honestly, I really did.

Laura

(01:00:05)
I could never imagine that. I can’t imagine it.

Lisa

(01:00:09)
Honestly. I did. I forced myself because I really wanted to be able to translate what I had in my mind, the idea in my mind, I wanted to put it on paper and it was just, it was disgusting. And so I spent time developing that. I spent all my time and energy on that and yeah, look, yeah, no, I just love doing it. I just love drawing animals. So, yeah, don’t be afraid to push yourself. It can be done.

Nikki

(01:00:36)
That’s really great advice because the only way to get better is to just do that thing that you know needs work.

Lisa

(01:00:42)
Oh yeah, yeah.

Laura

(01:00:44)
Well, Lisa, we just want to thank you for being with us today. This has been an amazing conversation, especially for people who, who are interested and maybe intimidated by the world of marketplaces and putting your artwork out there for other people to utilize, which you do so beautifully. Um, if anybody wants to find you online and connect with you, where can they find.

Lisa

(01:01:05)
Yeah, they can hop over to my website, which is lisaglanz.com. Um, I have an Instagram account, which is, uh, glanzgraphics, and yeah, that’s about it, I’ve I think from, from my website, you know, you’ll see my learning platforms, which is Skillshare and my Teachable. Um, and then if you want to find me on Design Cuts, you can literally just type in Lisa Glanz, you know, on the website, you’ll find me there or Creative Market, same thing. Um, yeah.

Laura

(01:01:35)
Your products are outstanding. For those of you that are Procreate artists and they’re so. awesome, the brushes. So I highly, highly recommend checking them out and purchasing a few for yourself.

Lisa

(01:01:48)
Thank you.

Nikki

(01:01:48)
Lisa, thank you so much for joining us here. It’s been so fantastic.

Lisa

(01:01:54)
Oh, it’s a pleasure.

Nikki

01:01:56)
For today’s Startist Society, show notes and links to all things Lisa Glanz, go to startistsociety.com/lisaglanz.

Laura

(01:02:06)
And if you love drawing animals, be sure to check out Lisa’s latest Procreate set that just came out this week. If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, we’d love for you to leave us a five star rating and review. Reviews help us reach more startists like you and keep us inspired to continue creating new episodes.

Nikki

01:02:24)
Thanks for listening. And we’ll see you next week.

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